Balducci Bros stock class EB build

[balduccibros]

This thread is going to start off really boring, don't expect pics for at least a few weeks. I need to start a thread though because I'm new to the Bronco world and I'm gonna try to make as few mistakes as possible with this thing...which means I'll need some input.

I've been into rockcrawling and Ultra4 racing for a few years now. My brother and I started competing in rockcrawls, then races, then started working full time for an Ultra4 race team and basically ran out of time to do it seriously for ourselves. We've raced here and there for the past couple years if our car happened to be prepped the weekend of a race. My brother always drove and I always co drove...which got old. So a couple years ago my dad bought a '75 bronco as a little weekend fun truck. Just a nice driver, not a mint resto and no crazy mods. he doesn't take it off road or anything. I bought another bronco that had power steering and a hurst floor shifter to put into his to make it a little nicer to drive. After I robbed the parts this other bronco just sat for about a year, its in rough shape and I had thought about parting it out but just hadn't had time. I've been dying to build something to race myself but time and money are both tight so I've just been ignoring the urge. A few weekends ago I realized that just about all the sanctioning bodies that we have here on the east coast now have stock or limited classes for more budget minded racers and an EB would be a great vehicle...so I'm using the parts bronco to build myself a stock class truck.

So my plan so far is stock frame and body(I'll cut off any brackets and extra sheet metal that I'm allowed to by the rules). Use a 302 from an explorer and retain the fuel injection, use a C4(both engine and trans must be what came in it stock according to the rules). I'll keep the stock transfer case for now, but I'd like to clock it closer to flat. I know I can't do that with the holes that are there stock so once I get into the project I'll see what I can figure out...maybe go with an np205 if that makes life easier(I'm guessing converting the input/output shafts is going to make that not easy).

For the axles I'm going to use a full width dana44 out of a pre 77 f150...from my little bit of research that gives me about a 66" WMS, the ability to run a 5.38 gear, and axle tubes that can be cleaned up and a little easier to build the suspension off of than a 78-79 f150. I'm wondering how the 5.38s will hold up. I'm not going to be making a bunch of power for the time being and the tires will be 35" max.

rear will be a full width 9" with some aftermarket case, 5.40s, spool, and 35 spline semi float axles. I'll be converting to 6 lug. the reason for 6 lug and the desire to run a 5.40 ring and pinion is because we have lots of almost broken diffs for the rear that I can throw together for free...they're too worn out to run in my boss's race car at an important race, but the should be fine for a low power racer, and if I dnf a race because of a free gearset it won't be the end of the world. Converting to 6 lug or the same reason, everything else we have is 6 lug and there are lots of bent wheels and old tires for me to scavenge.

Front suspension will probably end up being a 3 link/panhard setup with coils and dual fox performance series IFP shocks(rules don't allow reservoir shocks or non sealed shocks). I'll limit the suspension travel to whatever I need to in order to keep the steering reliable. I'd love to use all stock components like the Moss Bros do on their bronco, but I'll probably rework the panhard and do heim steering. Since I put the power steering box on my dads bronco I can basically pick and choose whatever steering box I want. I'll run a steering quickener before the box, hydraulic assist, and most likely a Howe TC pump. I'd love to have Jeff build me a steering box but he charges a lot.

Rear suspension will be leaves, I'm not decided on whether to go spring under or stay spring over. Where I'll be racing is a lot of rocky messy trails. For higher speed stuff and If I ever get out west to race spring under deavers are the obvious choice. However in the east coast woods I'm debating whether the lost ground clearance will suck too much. The cheap side of me says to do spring over and take the time to tune some junkyard springs until I get it right...I'm not sure what to do here yet, maybe you guys can help. I have very little experience with setting up leaf springs for racing, but the rules dictate that I stick with them. Same shocks as the front in the back.

I'm a fabricator by trade and I have a lot of great tool resources at work, so expect to see lots of fabwork that will look out of place with my junkyard budget build. This thing will be built to eventually meet 4600 class rules(king of the hammers stock class) but I will be racing it in the line mt. series(www.lm4w.org) and Rausch Creek race series(www.rc4x4.org) if anybody wants specific links to any of those rulebooks I'll post up the links. Let me know what you guys think about my plan so far, is it going to fall apart before the start line or does it sound like I might have a decent plan?

[300]

Sounds like you have thought through things pretty well. Having parts to pick from always steers my choice as well.

Not sure what the speeds are on the courses you are looking, and I missed it if you said what size tires you are going to use. If you are going to run faster than 45 mph, you will need the gear sets you talked about. Sounds like you have already considered the that the pinion gear is going to be very tiny if you do. If speeds were under 45 (real tight) than you might consider the stock 3.50 gears and running a NP205 in low range. The numerically low ratio of the 205 and the strength of those things would allow that, and the 3.50 gears should be much stronger and outlast 5.38's. Will a C4 bolt to a 205? The front driveshaft of a 205 interferes with the pan on a C6 if you use the short tail housing, but should clear a narrower C4. Without offsetting the engine and trans to the right, I doubt if any of the chain drive cases will fit in a EB frame.

Sounds like a fun rig!

[ChaseTruck754]

Sounds like a good plan and a fun project. Can't wait til this thread gets "interesting" as I'm interested already!

[Rmc]

Sounds like a good plan and a fun project. Can't wait til this thread gets "interesting" as I'm interested already!

X2

[balduccibros]

Sounds like you have thought through things pretty well. Having parts to pick from always steers my choice as well.

Not sure what the speeds are on the courses you are looking, and I missed it if you said what size tires you are going to use. If you are going to run faster than 45 mph, you will need the gear sets you talked about. Sounds like you have already considered the that the pinion gear is going to be very tiny if you do. If speeds were under 45 (real tight) than you might consider the stock 3.50 gears and running a NP205 in low range. The numerically low ratio of the 205 and the strength of those things would allow that, and the 3.50 gears should be much stronger and outlast 5.38's. Will a C4 bolt to a 205? The front driveshaft of a 205 interferes with the pan on a C6 if you use the short tail housing, but should clear a narrower C4. Without offsetting the engine and trans to the right, I doubt if any of the chain drive cases will fit in a EB frame.

Sounds like a fun rig!

I'll be running 35s, speeds vary, most of the time its under 45, but there are sections that I'll be hitting 80 or so. I just checked advance adapters site and they don't make anything to put a 205 behind a C4. I know the dana 20 will be one of the weak points on this truck, do you think it would hold up to running in low range? I could definitely gain some longevity by doing so, I've got plenty of r&p sets for the rear in 5.40, but the front would definitely be getting replaced more often. I'm still not sure what to do with the front diff. In our Ultra4 we run spools, the courses this thing will be doing don't have any rock crawling, but I will be running 4wd and I do think having a locked front diff can help keep the tires spinning over the rocks...I'm skeptical how much extra wear and tear that will inflict on the axles and gears though. I'd like to put RCV shafts and CVs in the front at some point, but that won't be in the initial budget.

I'm in the middle of moving from an apartment to a house with a 2 car garage. I'm super excited to get moved in and get cranking on this thing. I need to find a donor frame(I could repair the one I've got but I really really want a clean slate from the start). I also need to get my axles, a C4, and before too long I'll need the fuel injected motor. I think I have the C4 and rear housing covered. I just found a guy with a few frames about an hour and a half away, we'll see how much he wants in the next day or so. The front housing looks like it might be a little tricky to find on the cheap...then I'll be ready to roll.

Couple questions for you guys....
I know I'm probably in the opposite corner of the country from most of you, but for anyone living in the rust belt, what is a fair price for a frame?
If I stay spring over and build a junkyard leaf pack, what have people had success with and what doesn't work so well. I know the basic premise is lots of long thin leaves, I know XJ leaves might work and the 63" chevy springs are popular with toyota crawler guys, but for going fast what donor vehicles do I need to look at? The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards staying spring over. I know the value in tuning, we tune the hell out of our race car and it pays huge dividends. I'm sure I'll need traction bars for spring over, but thats not a big deal.
I'm getting some springs for the front that came off of my bosses 4600 class grand cherokee with a 5.9. They are PAC springs that they designed using input from jeepspeed guys. I'm thinking they should work pretty well, I'll need to do some kind of adjustable coil buckets to get my ride height right. Think they might work well?

[toddz69]

Couple questions for you guys....
I know I'm probably in the opposite corner of the country from most of you, but for anyone living in the rust belt, what is a fair price for a frame?
If I stay spring over and build a junkyard leaf pack, what have people had success with and what doesn't work so well. I know the basic premise is lots of long thin leaves, I know XJ leaves might work and the 63" chevy springs are popular with toyota crawler guys, but for going fast what donor vehicles do I need to look at? The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards staying spring over. I know the value in tuning, we tune the hell out of our race car and it pays huge dividends. I'm sure I'll need traction bars for spring over, but thats not a big deal.
I'm getting some springs for the front that came off of my bosses 4600 class grand cherokee with a 5.9. They are PAC springs that they designed using input from jeepspeed guys. I'm thinking they should work pretty well, I'll need to do some kind of adjustable coil buckets to get my ride height right. Think they might work well?

Sign up over on classicbroncos.com as well - tons of knowledge there. Frames should be cheap no matter what part of the country you're in. I don't think I'd pay more than $200 for one here in AZ. Dana 20 can work just fine for you - the weak link is the output shaft and there are fixes for that. As for a good steering box, I'd get one of the so-called 4x4x2 boxes, which is a 76-79/78-79 F150/Bronco box with the worm gear assembly from a later model 2WD box swapped in so it turns the right way.

Todd Z.

[300]

If you put a spool in the front, you won't be able to steer it! I have heard of guys using various limited slip units successfully. I have also heard of guys that drove theirs exactly once with a locker, took it home and put the open diff back in. We are still using an open front diff. We have had good luck with alloy axles and CTM joints, however a broken spindle snout ruins everything. Actually once we figured out that full circle clips on the Dana joints held up just fine for what we do.

I have heard the Dana 20 does fine. Since you aren't doing low, low crawling stuff most of the time, and you don't have the torque multiplication of that duty, the transfer cases hold up well.

As far as springs, before we hooked up with Deaver, we had to resort to doing them ourselves. I had one set of main leaves made up by a local spring shop and then we did the rest. There are still spring shops around, look for heavy truck and trailer places. You can buy the blank material and shape it yourself with a big piece of steel channel and a 12 pound sledge. Beat on it until you get the shape you want, that is really how its done. You would be poplular in your apartment complex on a Sunday morning! The next time I went to the same spring shop, they couldn't do them anymore because they couldn't find the super long piece of spring blank material to make the main leafs. You are right, the long thin material makes the best long travel springs. Use 2-1/2" material and 11 to 13 leaves for 2500# load on the rear. You can probably use less since your truck should be much lighter. Deaver swears by US made steel, however we still break them with 16 to 17" of travel. Look around for something that is close and shape them to what you need. Those blacksmith guys were some tough old birds! We broke a couple of leaves before a race in Vegas for a September (?) race. Bought two pieces of spring blank at a local shop, a sledge from Home Depot and shaped it on the curb out in front of the shop. In 114* heat!!!!!!!!!! What were we thinking? I think we did fine in the race the next day.

You can use circle track stuff to make adjustable spring buckets, might start with bucket that is common because you could be breaking them often. We ran the stock ones for quite a while, no adjusters, broke several coils, buckets and collapsed numerous lower coil mounts over the years. Were so glad (except for the expense and starting from scratch on the front engine cage) to dump them and go with coil overs.

No idea on the cost of a frame, they haven't made them in over 35 years! You didn't hear it from me that West Coast Broncos cuts them up for scrap when they part them out............. Sounds like Todd has plenty of them in AZ, he has by far the best hook up on EB stuff.

[ESHALLBETTER]

I've got an EFI 5.0 from an explorer in my EB with a C4 and the Dana 20. If I recall I used a 96 explorer motor? I believe there was something in regards to the anti theft in all the explorers with the exception of one year model, that made the swap/wiring considerably more difficult if you used a motor/computer with the anti theft. I wish I could be more help, but I can't remember the specifics...

Try searching google and I'll see if I saved any of the info I had...

[ESHALLBETTER]

Good info with a few useful links in the thread.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/715 ... -swap.html

[balduccibros]

Wow, lots of good info, thanks guys.

I'm not worried about a spool on the front. If you phase your ujoints(just like a driveshaft) they steer fine. I've been up to 116 mph in the dezert and almost a hundred on the street with spooled fronts and everything inbetween. Steering box and full hydraulic steering, no prob. I guess I can run the thing with an open front, then weld it and see what I like better.

I have a plasma table at work so I can whip up some coil buckets easy enough.

I'll look into the years of exploder motors to see which is best. A guy I used to work for has done lots of these swaps so I'll get his opinion.

[toddz69]

Wow, lots of good info, thanks guys.

I'm not worried about a spool on the front. If you phase your ujoints(just like a driveshaft) they steer fine. I've been up to 116 mph in the dezert and almost a hundred on the street with spooled fronts and everything inbetween. Steering box and full hydraulic steering, no prob. I guess I can run the thing with an open front, then weld it and see what I like better.

I have a plasma table at work so I can whip up some coil buckets easy enough.

I'll look into the years of exploder motors to see which is best. A guy I used to work for has done lots of these swaps so I'll get his opinion.

There are 1-2 years of Explorer engines that don't have the PATS system if I recall correctly. Most folks just use the Fox Mustang EFI stuff (distributor, computer, aftermarket harnesses, etc.) and forego the Explorer harness and EDIS (distributorless ignition) although there are a few people just now converting to EDIS with custom harnesses and reflashed computers. Again - classicbroncos.com has threads on it. However, if I were you, I'd just run the Mustang stuff on the engine and be done with it.

The 96 Explorer 5.0 is the only one with the GT-40 heads. '97-'01 have the GT-40P heads, which flow better, but limit your header choices tremendously due to the plug angles, particularly the #7 cylinder. BC Broncos sells headers that allegedly work ok with the P heads.

Since you're in Maryland and might want a hookup for used parts in your neck of the woods, i.e. a frame, I'd highly recommend contacting my friend Drew Peroni at drew.peroni@gmail.com. He'll have nearly any used part you might need and is as wealth of knowledge on the trucks too. He lives in York, PA.

Todd Z.

[ESHALLBETTER]

I'm running the stock explorer computer stripped of all the extra crap it does not need to run. No custom harness or re-flashing. It's pretty funny how little wiring it actually NEEDS to run! It was a pain to sort through though, and if i did it again i would probably simplify it with the mustang stuff.

[toddz69]

I'm running the stock explorer computer stripped of all the extra crap it does not need to run. No custom harness or re-flashing. It's pretty funny how little wiring it actually NEEDS to run! It was a pain to sort through though, and if i did it again i would probably simplify it with the mustang stuff.

There ya go - I guess you don't need any of the fancy mods on the first year or two.

Todd Z.

[ESHALLBETTER]

I'm running the stock explorer computer stripped of all the extra crap it does not need to run. No custom harness or re-flashing. It's pretty funny how little wiring it actually NEEDS to run! It was a pain to sort through though, and if i did it again i would probably simplify it with the mustang stuff.

There ya go - I guess you don't need any of the fancy mods on the first year or two.

Todd Z.

I just reread what I posted...hope it didn't come off as know-it-all ish... Lots of good info coming from this thread!

[balduccibros]

I miiiiight end up building custom headers. I can probably scrounge up some builder kits pretty cheap, header flanges can be cut to match whatever heads I run on the plasma table, so that could make the gt40p heads an option. Who makes a good longtube header for the regular gt40 heads?

I'll talk to Drew soon, York is a couple hours away so I'll do my best to source things more local when possible...the wealth of knowledge is good though.

Also I did sign up on classic broncos...haven't had much time to just browse though lately. I was looking for their introduction section last night and didn't see one...I was tired though.

I just wish I could start this thing already. I get the keys to the new place friday morning, so I'll spend all weekend moving in and hopefully I'll get a chance to move a few things into the shop. It needs a bit more insulation, some kind of paint to brighten it up a bit, and better lighting. There's no 220 power for my welder or plasma, so I'll have to build an extension cord lol. I have a bunch of other tools, so until I can start on the bronco I'll probably post some pics of the shop setup to try to keep you guys entertained.

Here is a link to the Ultra4 car we built last winter if any of you guys are interested: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... 4-car.html

[toddz69]

I'm running the stock explorer computer stripped of all the extra crap it does not need to run. No custom harness or re-flashing. It's pretty funny how little wiring it actually NEEDS to run! It was a pain to sort through though, and if i did it again i would probably simplify it with the mustang stuff.

There ya go - I guess you don't need any of the fancy mods on the first year or two.

Todd Z.

I just reread what I posted...hope it didn't come off as know-it-all ish... Lots of good info coming from this thread!

Not on my account - I hope the same thing about my posts!

Todd Z.

[PaulW]

c4/d20 results in under geared until you get some motion. Toddz has the dream setup which is 700r4/atlas. Anyway a c4 is on the weak side compared to a built 700r4 or a c6

If you are a fab guy why not coilovers on 4 corners and links front and back. Probably put you into a pricy class?

[balduccibros]

Yeah stock class dictates stock frame, stock style suspension, stock engine block and trans, mostly full body, etc...and I can't afford to go to a more open class. I'm so used to spending other people's money and telling them what parts to buy, it's way more frustrating when it comes out of my pocket.

Who do you guys for headers? I really am not familiar with the EB vendors yet.

How about fuel cells? I'd like to get something that fits in the stock rear tank location. I'm not allowed to cut the floor at all for it. The more fuel it holds the better, but most of our races here are under 75 miles.

[ESHALLBETTER]

...Who do you guys for headers?...

Craigslist!

BC Broncos, Wildhorses, Toms Bronco Parts, Bronco Graveyard,

[ChaseTruck754]

If you decide you need to build your own these guys have bends and bend type kits reasonable priced
http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/