brakes < gofast.. power booster vs manual brakes.

[Smart Alex]

Who knows what?

I'm doing something this week..

11 days away from race day

M

[300]

If you are doing race only I would recommend manual brakes, but not exactly sure if that is what you are asking. Dual master cylinders with a balance bar system. Need to be able to adjust the bias front to back when racing. Look at how they do it for circle track cars. It will take more leg than a booster will, especially if you are using stock sized rotors on a FSB.

[Smart Alex]

If you are doing race only I would recommend manual brakes, but not exactly sure if that is what you are asking. Dual master cylinders with a balance bar system. Need to be able to adjust the bias front to back when racing. Look at how they do it for circle track cars. It will take more leg than a booster will, especially if you are using stock sized rotors on a FSB.

Thank you. I guess what I am asking if anybody has put a set of manual brakes on a fsb with stock front calipers and what was the outcome. I'm familiar with setting up brake systems, pedal length/ratio etc. My truck has a set of 4 piston brembos in the rear. The 1" factory master is close to working for both front and rear sets of calipers.

[Wrightracing.net]

I am putting is hydro boost from a 1 ton truck on my Bronco. I am doing it for two reasons. Make room for suspension and cage in the engine compartment and to give me more power to the oem front brakes rotors. I am going to run disks in rear and a proportioning valve for front to rear. I do want to upgrade calipers but not sure yet. A trick a friend told me about, was to use 6 piston Toyota Tundra calipers on the Bronco. Cheap yet good shopping.

[arse_sidewards]

I am putting is hydro boost from a 1 ton truck on my Bronco. I am doing it for two reasons. Make room for suspension and cage in the engine compartment and to give me more power to the oem front brakes rotors. I am going to run disks in rear and a proportioning valve for front to rear. I do want to upgrade calipers but not sure yet. A trick a friend told me about, was to use 6 piston Toyota Tundra calipers on the Bronco. Cheap yet good shopping.

Do you have a pic of the bracket you used to do this? Did you weld to the spindle or put a bracket over the spindle?

Yeah, the tundra calipers are massive, over 8000mm^2 piston area each, which is nearly double the stock 4185mm^2. The Tbird calipers are 4776mm^2 and the 54mm dual pistons that the 90s 3/4 and 1ton trucks and a heck of a lot of other vehicles use is 47575mm^2.

The Tundra actually uses a 15/16 master cyl if one were to transplant the calipers into one of our trucks and keep the stock master cylinder they'd have nearly double the braking force (in the front) but double the travel. Somewhere I saw a comparison of the area of the 1/2 and 1-ton vacuum boosters but I can't find it anymore.

My long term plan is the Tundra calipers with a slip on 11" rotor from a 94 Dodge 1500 or 20004? (I have it written down somewhere) Kia Sorento (or maybe Sportage?). The calipers are big enough that IMO the upgrade to a 12" or 13" rotor isn't necessary and not compromising my ability to run stock wheels and cheap 15" CL steelies is very important to me.

Back to OP's question. With big enough calipers all around and a smaller dual master cylinder setup you could negate the need for a power booster....but do you really want to be stopping 5000+lbs manually. If you size the master cylinders to be appropriate for a non-assisted setup you'll be cutting it close on pedal travel or it will take a heck of a lot of effort and you'll need to get it really, really, really well bled, not hard, but it can be hard to do well in the field. If you have the resources to run dual master cylinders and want to do so for reliability/tuning then go for it, but keep the booster. If you use some old single-pot masters as your duals you may wind up being the same or shorter length as the stock setup even with the linkage and bracket.

[toddz69]

A trick a friend told me about, was to use 6 piston Toyota Tundra calipers on the Bronco. Cheap yet good shopping.

What year Tundras have 6 piston calipers? I've seen 4 piston models but not 6 piston versions.

Thanks,
Todd Z.

[toddz69]

Yeah, the tundra calipers are massive, over 8000mm^2 piston area each, which is nearly double the stock 4185mm^2. The Tbird calipers are 4776mm^2 and the 54mm dual pistons that the 90s 3/4 and 1ton trucks and a heck of a lot of other vehicles use is 47575mm^2.
and bracket.

What Tundra calipers have piston areas that are nearly twice the size of T-Bird calipers and 3/4-1 ton truck calipers?

Todd Z.

[Rmc]

According to CNC I was to run dual 3/4 masters and call if there was an issue. The lady told me that the 3/4 masters generated enough pressure for 6 up front and 4 piston rear. She basically eluded to 3/4's generate a shit ton of pressure and 1" would pass more volume at a lower pressure.

[ChaseTruck754]

What year Tundras have 6 piston calipers? I've seen 4 piston models but not 6 piston versions.

x2

I have a set of 4 piston tacoma calipers around I was looking at using for my ranger. Cheaper than the wilwoods and work just as well if not better as they won't flex like the wilwoods will. Problem with them is they weigh 2x or more than the wilwoods.

[Smart Alex]

Agree with steve. Toyota brakes are definitely boat anchor heavy. I'm looking to lighten up everything I can.

So no one here has put manual brakes on their bronco and used it yet? There has to be at least a couple.

[tcm glx]

Agree with steve. Toyota brakes are definitely boat anchor heavy. I'm looking to lighten up everything I can.

So no one here has put manual brakes on their bronco and used it yet? There has to be at least a couple.

Tom W did on Minty, but no longer using stock front brakes. It's on the BajaF250 thread Mike.

[arse_sidewards]

Yeah, the tundra calipers are massive, over 8000mm^2 piston area each, which is nearly double the stock 4185mm^2. The Tbird calipers are 4776mm^2 and the 54mm dual pistons that the 90s 3/4 and 1ton trucks and a heck of a lot of other vehicles use is 47575mm^2.
and bracket.

What Tundra calipers have piston areas that are nearly twice the size of T-Bird calipers and 3/4-1 ton truck calipers?

Todd Z.

Rockauto says 07-14 uses ~50.8mm (2") quad piston according to the Raybestos website. The pics make it look like the pads mount within the caliper and the only bracket needed is one with two holes for the caliper to mount to. I can't tell if they're aluminum or painted steel, aluminum would be lighter but any vehicle sold with a warranty and/or sold to average consumers should probably have steel for it's durability (and price) and since we're more concerned about size and durability than weight or cooling IMO steel is superior for what we do.

[toddz69]

Rockauto says 07-14 uses ~50.8mm (2") quad piston according to the Raybestos website. The pics make it look like the pads mount within the caliper and the only bracket needed is one with two holes for the caliper to mount to. I can't tell if they're aluminum or painted steel, aluminum would be lighter but any vehicle sold with a warranty and/or sold to average consumers should probably have steel for it's durability (and price) and since we're more concerned about size and durability than weight or cooling IMO steel is superior for what we do.

Those are the ones I've been researching and have a little familarity with - they're steel and I agree that we're a little less concerned with mass than road racers, for example. Those have a piston area of just over 4,000 sq. mm (you only use the piston area on one side of the caliper for brake calcs) so I think they would be a good candidate depending on whether a bracket could be easily fabricated.

Todd Z.

[Wrightracing.net]

I am not sure of the year or specs but it was the years that got re called and the dealers had a bunch of them sitting around. I may be wrong on the 6 piston. I have not looked into it yet. The calipers were fine for use but recall replaced them. Unknown why.

[Rmc]

Wilwoods aren't that expensive. 170$ each for the 4 piston,6 piston are 3 and some change, that mixed with more even pad pressure on a larger rotor and I think it will be night and day.if the stock booster isn't enough change to manual dual 3/4 masters.

[Clean Racing INC.]

M.

What size wheel and tire combo are you running? I am guessing that the hub/rotor combo are stock dimension ford?

I would personally would not change a brake set up on a car with 11 days before the event. I usually do that development stuff in the off season. Also what kind of budget are you setting for the holy grail of brakes? A lot could be gained in the compound of the brake pads as well...

Just my thoughts.. Not worth much..

[300]

If you are doing race only I would recommend manual brakes, but not exactly sure if that is what you are asking. Dual master cylinders with a balance bar system. Need to be able to adjust the bias front to back when racing. Look at how they do it for circle track cars. It will take more leg than a booster will, especially if you are using stock sized rotors on a FSB.

Thank you. I guess what I am asking if anybody has put a set of manual brakes on a fsb with stock front calipers and what was the outcome.

To answer that question, yes we are using the stock Bronco calipers in the front and non powered manual brake masters. It does work and has worked successfully for 14 years but takes a lot of leg pressure. Smaller master cylinder would help but you can run out of pedal by going to small. Residual pressure valves would help but we end up pumping them some times to get decent pedal. I would never use this system on something that wasn't for race only. Used to use GM calipers on the back but have since switched to Wilwood 4 piston calipers.

Switching to another front caliper with more piston size would be nice, but it is a matter of what we already have and have spares for. We don't have spares for the rear, but in the rear you can cap one side off if you need to. With the spool it still operates both wheels.

[arse_sidewards]

you only use the piston area on one side of the caliper for brake calcs
Todd Z.

You're confusing them with floating calipers which effectively double the piston area because the force acts on both sides of the rotor. Any caliper with pistons on both sides is not a floating caliper 99.999% of the time (because having pistons on both sides accomplishes the same task. The area is 8000mm, it's just not the massive upgrade over everything else that it sounds like.

[toddz69]

you only use the piston area on one side of the caliper for brake calcs
Todd Z.

You're confusing them with floating calipers which effectively double the piston area because the force acts on both sides of the rotor. Any caliper with pistons on both sides is not a floating caliper 99.999% of the time (because having pistons on both sides accomplishes the same task. The area is 8000mm, it's just not the massive upgrade over everything else that it sounds like.

There's no confusion - I'm well aware of the differences between floating and fixed calipers. And yes, the total piston area is about 8000 sq. mm. My point was that when calculating piston clamping forces in braking calculations, you don't get to count the total surface area of all the pistons in fixed caliper with pistons on both sides of the rotor, i.e. the Toyota calipers don't exert ~2X the clamping forces of the single piston calipers you mentioned in your prior post.

Todd Z.

[Smart Alex]

M.

What size wheel and tire combo are you running? I am guessing that the hub/rotor combo are stock dimension ford?

I would personally would not change a brake set up on a car with 11 days before the event. I usually do that development stuff in the off season. Also what kind of budget are you setting for the holy grail of brakes? A lot could be gained in the compound of the brake pads as well...

Just my thoughts.. Not worth much..

Lol holy Grail. And no more 11 days. 9 days.
35" bfgoodrich tire 15" heavy walker wheel. Hub/rotor are stock components. Yes..
What compoun/manufacturer do you recommend?
I ended up buying a reman booster/master just to plug and play as I'm making a handful of changes.