Camel Joe Bronco 78

[[HBW]22]

Its hard to tune the shocks but it does work. However I'd worry about the possibility of shock temps at speed for an extended length of time if your only running on shock per corner. You'll need to up the compression and rebound quite a bit in comparison.

I forgot to add the truck will have bypasses on all 4 corners still. I just have to sell my rear 16inch bypasses and get another set of 14s. Yeah I figured it would make it hard to tune, but I wonder if it would be worth it for the extra travel. I am just mocking stuff up and seeing how it will work. might set the shocks up at a 45 this weekend and cycle it.

[Rmc]

Well on the broncos under the bed style the shocks are at a pretty steep angle. Not sure if its quite 45 but its gotta be close. I was more curious about the shock tabs idea. Meaning can it come off the front edge of the axel or has to be mounted over center? If you put them on the leading edge and angled them it would seem to be applying mechanical advantage BUT it still axel mounted and would help. I believe valving can be sorted through testing. It would seem a very soft flutter stack followed by super stiff would help serve both purposes ( in my mind) I'm thinking the soft for the rock negotiating and stiffer when at speed.

I guess my point is foreward lean would gain the most travel yet inboard would gain you the most articulation. The speed at which these things happen would be harder to valve away the narrower you mount them and the farther they lean foreward. An in car detachable swaybar system or just a very soft sway bar system may help in the sway dept something to keep in mind when thinking of valving and spring rates. I'd think you would want to be slightly under sprung for the rocks. But what the hell do I know I always rolled when I played in the rocks.

[[HBW]22]

Well on the broncos under the bed style the shocks are at a pretty steep angle. Not sure if its quite 45 but its gotta be close. I was more curious about the shock tabs idea. Meaning can it come off the front edge of the axel or has to be mounted over center? If you put them on the leading edge and angled them it would seem to be applying mechanical advantage BUT it still axel mounted and would help. I believe valving can be sorted through testing. It would seem a very soft flutter stack followed by super stiff would help serve both purposes ( in my mind) I'm thinking the soft for the rock negotiating and stiffer when at speed.

I guess my point is foreward lean would gain the most travel yet inboard would gain you the most articulation. The speed at which these things happen would be harder to valve away the narrower you mount them and the farther they lean foreward. An in car detachable swaybar system or just a very soft sway bar system may help in the sway dept something to keep in mind when thinking of valving and spring rates. I'd think you would want to be slightly under sprung for the rocks. But what the hell do I know I always rolled when I played in the rocks.

Yeah I like the way you are thinking. I believe hanging the shock mounts off the front of the axle would be perfectly legal. I would think a mechanical advantage would be if I mounted them on my trailing arm or cantilever. I also plan on running some type of sway bar. I think I will mock it up at a 45 this weekend, would you suggest to lean them inward a little or just keep them straight? When I had them mounted on the trailing arms they where leaned slightly forward and had no lean inwards. It flexed pretty well with that set up.

[[HBW]22]

Here is the poison spyder rig that use to race in my class. It has lots of lean on the shocks.

[Rmc]

My advise would be take the truck to full tuck, set up the shock to be perpendicular in the x and y directions. So at full tuck it should be 90 to the axel crossways and 90 to the axel front to back. I'm betting the end destination on the frame side will be very similar to what's pictured. Also notice in the picture he only has about 4 inches of upstroke. The primary spring is nearly squished flat. I imagine this is to maintain the lowest ride height possible to compensate to some degree for the big tires and higher center of gravity. The lower you keep the cg even in the rocks the harder to roll over. So low and squishy is what I see in the pic.

[Rmc]

They can't use winches in ultra 4? I have seen some non ultra 4 rock buggies with winches mounted to squat one axel at a time. They tie each axel to the frame via winches and raise and lower each axel independently when needed to lower the cg or drop an axel to droop to have the tires grab the rocks.

[Rmc]

There dosnt appear to be inward lean to the shocks in the pics ( just googled poison spyder ultra 4) only front to back. Some of the front shock angle may be due to packaging, meaning they didn't want to have the shock sticking out the hood or maybe a frame design issue. Some stuff just happens after the fact as builds progress too I suppose.

[[HBW]22]

My advise would be take the truck to full tuck, set up the shock to be perpendicular in the x and y directions. So at full tuck it should be 90 to the axel crossways and 90 to the axel front to back. I'm betting the end destination on the frame side will be very similar to what's pictured. Also notice in the picture he only has about 4 inches of upstroke. The primary spring is nearly squished flat. I imagine this is to maintain the lowest ride height possible to compensate to some degree for the big tires and higher center of gravity. The lower you keep the cg even in the rocks the harder to roll over. So low and squishy is what I see in the pic.

Okay that's what I was leaning towards. You think I should set the shock up at a 90 from front to back from the axle or links? also in the unlimited class of ultra4 you can use suck down winches I cant in my class though. I haven't been able to work on it much this weekend cause I have been helping my Dad get his boat all ready for my brothers bachelor party! I did manage to bust out 6 tubes late last night though.

Did some back half bracing.

[Rmc]

I think it's looking really good bro. Goto full tuck and see how you can best arrange the upper mounts and bracing. I'm sure however it works out to be the strongest will explain itself and be the best route for you. It's looking to me like your going down the right path.

[[HBW]22]

Thanks man I am really liking how it is turning out. Going from working on the bronco at a buddies shop to having my own shop at home has really been great! I will keep you posted on the shock mounts hoping to get working on them again soon. Thanks for all your help and ideas, just trying to figure out the best way to set the rear up. I would really love to mount the shocks on the trialing arms though!

[Rmc]

I don't blame you but I'm not sure the rules would allow that. That's kind of why I was thinking stout long-ish tabs to simulate on a small scale the mechanical advantage generated by trailing arm leverage to shock travel ratio. I'm not sure what their definition is, but understand anything in front of axel centerline is actually lending a ratio at non 1:1.

[[HBW]22]

Yeah I am going to mock up some long tabs like you are talking about and see what kind of results I can get. I want to push that rule all the way to the limit to get some more travel.

[[HBW]22]

Been re-working the shocks today. I'm actually going to run my 16inch bypasses, but convert them to 14s by putting a spacer in them to make them class legal. My buddy works at fox and is going to get me spacers made this week. Here is what I came up with today.

[Rmc]

Take a piece of 1/2x1/2 square rot iron ( my mock up material of choice because its cheap) and tack or clamp from frame rail to frame rail, ideally inline with the link pivots, then tie a string from that bar to the axel housing on each side. This string would represent the link pivot plane. Then place the shock at 90 front to back and side to side. It looks like you may have done something similar because those shocks look very close to 90. I think tech wise it's the green light cause they can see plainly the 1:1 ratio. Any particular reason the bypass is out front? Not like it matters but I was curious. The string thing makes it easier to get both sides the same between the string and angle finder. I usually would have a string on each side. I think it's looking good though.

[[HBW]22]

Take a piece of 1/2x1/2 square rot iron ( my mock up material of choice because its cheap) and tack or clamp from frame rail to frame rail, ideally inline with the link pivots, then tie a string from that bar to the axel housing on each side. This string would represent the link pivot plane. Then place the shock at 90 front to back and side to side. It looks like you may have done something similar because those shocks look very close to 90. I think tech wise it's the green light cause they can see plainly the 1:1 ratio. Any particular reason the bypass is out front? Not like it matters but I was curious. The string thing makes it easier to get both sides the same between the string and angle finder. I usually would have a string on each side. I think it's looking good though.

Yeah I just used flat stock for mock up it was fairly cheap. I will have to try the string trick next time sounds like a good way to do it. I set the shocks just a little off from 90 for packaging reasons. Also I put the bypass up front cause it fit better. Only thing I am worried about with this set up is body roll cause the shocks are close together. Everything cycled great though just not sure about it.

[Rmc]

Are you planning on running a rear sway bar? Is it possible to run the shocks outboard of the frame? I guess will the tires clear with shocks outboard? It almost seems like setting up a truck for desert racing is easier than the well rounded ness of this class. I mean flat fast and stable is wide and low cg. With this I imagine superwide would hurt the performance in the rocks, the body sway isn't a bad thing with a low enough cg and outboard means less protection. Seems like a trade off. If your going to do what I've seen the trade off of body roll vs shocks smashed when sliding sideways tagging the rocks is worth it. I'd pose as a dreamer (who knows little about stuff even though thats far from true) not a do-er and ask alot of questions just like this at events and the upcoming expo in ontario. All you need is general parameters to work within. You and I both know dudes love to talk about there rides with people who are admiring there work. The best guys to ask are both the driver about characteristics or feeling and methods to the madness from the builders and what changes have been made to deal with the trade off of body roll, shock protection, low center of gravity ect. I know these things aren't the fastest on the straights but can do what desert trucks can't in the rocks. I'd definately seek the ones who know or try it and see how it feels. I garanty one thing... It won't feel like what your used to. I'm positive of that by the spiders springs in the picture above. With springs that soft roll is inevitable.

[[HBW]22]

Are you planning on running a rear sway bar? Is it possible to run the shocks outboard of the frame? I guess will the tires clear with shocks outboard? It almost seems like setting up a truck for desert racing is easier than the well rounded ness of this class. I mean flat fast and stable is wide and low cg. With this I imagine superwide would hurt the performance in the rocks, the body sway isn't a bad thing with a low enough cg and outboard means less protection. Seems like a trade off. If your going to do what I've seen the trade off of body roll vs shocks smashed when sliding sideways tagging the rocks is worth it. I'd pose as a dreamer (who knows little about stuff even though thats far from true) not a do-er and ask alot of questions just like this at events and the upcoming expo in ontario. All you need is general parameters to work within. You and I both know dudes love to talk about there rides with people who are admiring there work. The best guys to ask are both the driver about characteristics or feeling and methods to the madness from the builders and what changes have been made to deal with the trade off of body roll, shock protection, low center of gravity ect. I know these things aren't the fastest on the straights but can do what desert trucks can't in the rocks. I'd definately seek the ones who know or try it and see how it feels. I garanty one thing... It won't feel like what your used to. I'm positive of that by the spiders springs in the picture above. With springs that soft roll is inevitable.

Yeah I am planning on running a sway bar in the very back. It is possible to run them on the outside, but it is tight and they have way less protection like you said. Setting the bronco up for this class has been way harder than when I just set it up for mostly desert and some rock crawling. Setting it up to be competitive in the fast sections and rocks is challenging, but that is why I like this type of racing so much. It is a challenge and makes people think outside of the box. Some of these new ultra4 IFS buggies are hitting crazy speeds in the whoops now too it amazes me. I have been talking to some people on pirate4x4 and everyone has different set ups for there KOH rigs. I think it all comes down to what you can make work with the chassis you have and what you like. I think I will try this set up out. There is only one way to figure out if it works and that's by trying it.

[Rmc]

Well said.

[[HBW]22]

Got some stuff done tonight. Rebuilt/re-valved my front bypasses so I could use them for rear mock up, and started coming up with the upper shock mounts. Hoping to get more done tomorrow night also.

[[HBW]22]

Got a lot done yesterday. Got the rear shocks all done and its a roller now. Just need to box and gusset all the shock mounts and they will be all done. My buddy helped me yesterday and mounted the brake lights and started on the fuel filler splash shield/mount, and other little things like that. Plan is to finish everything in the rear than move to the interior. Also pushed the bronco out of the shop for some pix and to give the shop a good cleaning.