My '77 Project

[cwrisley]

After running the VIN thru a decoder, turns out I got a 351, not a 400. I guess thats a good things, Ive heard the 400's are slugs.

Kinda hard to tell, but the heads look to be equal, as in not offset. Windsor motor?

I also learned I have an F150, not F100.

[hobbyturnedobsession]

I'm not too sure, but if its a cleveland I've heard with a couple of simple mods the windsor heads will do some real good on that motor.

[ChaseTruck754]

After running the VIN thru a decoder, turns out I got a 351, not a 400. I guess thats a good things, Ive heard the 400's are slugs.

Kinda hard to tell, but the heads look to be equal, as in not offset. Windsor motor?

I also learned I have an F150, not F100.

Which 351? M, C, or W?

My guess is it's the 351m. And if you are going solely off VIN (many decoders online are crap by the way) I'm pretty positive it's an m.

The 351m is a destroked 400. Pretty much same boat anchor... They have cooling issues. They can make decent power and a lot of torque but still a boat anchor to most.

The 351c wasn't ever offered in a truck, but with how old these trucks are who know what people have swapped in over the years.

I'm not too sure, but if its a cleveland I've heard with a couple of simple mods the windsor heads will do some real good on that motor.

Referred to as "The Cleavor". Good motor, but as I said above I highly doubt it's a 351c in his truck.

The 351w I don't think was ever offered in the '73-79 trucks either but see my comment above.

[hobbyturnedobsession]

Yes it was for a bit. Not very common though as the cleveland put out more hp with the higher compression. The heads can be a biatch, and they had issues too.

[ChaseTruck754]

Yes it was for a bit.

You saying the 351c was offered in the '73-'79 trucks? If so - care to start your source of info?

[hobbyturnedobsession]

Had a buddy that had a 75 f150 with a numbers matching 351c. Not easy to find.

[ChaseTruck754]

Not easy to find because they didn't exist...

Well - a VIN that matched that motor that is. The motor had to be swapped in if it was in a truck or the truck came from out of the county.

See post #4 here:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10596 ... ndsor.html

"NumberDummy" is a local guy who was a parts man for Ford for YEARS. He has all the old microfishe on the parts catalogs, etc. for these things and decodes engineering/parts numbers for "fun." He's forgotten more about these trucks than I'll ever know.

Here's another one
http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/ ... -4200.html

And another
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10446 ... -clev.html

I could go on.

[AussieRod]

If its a 351, its an "M", as "C"'s went out in '74 and it sure aint a "W"

[aamay1986]

Not easy to find because they didn't exist...

Well - a VIN that matched that motor that is. The motor had to be swapped in if it was in a truck or the truck came from out of the county.

See post #4 here:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10596 ... ndsor.html

"NumberDummy" is a local guy who was a parts man for Ford for YEARS. He has all the old microfishe on the parts catalogs, etc. for these things and decodes engineering/parts numbers for "fun." He's forgotten more about these trucks than I'll ever know.

Here's another one
http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/ ... -4200.html

And another
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10446 ... -clev.html


I could go on.

I am with you on this one, never seen a small block Windsor or Cleveland on a 4x4 73-79 truck that was original. I've seen plenty on two wheel drives but most are 302s.
From the picture it is an M block cause of the ridge by the distributor.

[ChaseTruck754]

351w or c aren't even in 2wds from '73-79. ONLY 351m.

[aamay1986]

yeah for original small blocks there was only the 302 right?
Sorry for the thread hijack.

[ChaseTruck754]

yup.

It's not a thread hijack - it's a lesson in 70's fords - hahaha

[BDKW1]

I'm not too sure, but if its a cleveland I've heard with a couple of simple mods the windsor heads will do some real good on that motor.

Referred to as "The Cleavor". Good motor, but as I said above I highly doubt it's a 351c in his truck.

Cleavor was a 351W block with Cleavland heads on it. You have to drill the heads for water passages into the manifold and they require a special intake.

400M. All the 351C heads will interchange. Due to the years that they were built they were smoged to death and made poor power. They can actually be made into good motors but their lack of popularity means very little aftermarket for them. The bellhousing is the same a a 460. Swap over to one of these and never look back.........

[AussieRod]

Aint nothin' wrong with a good 400M..... we ran one in a Falcon ute here for a year. It ran 13.0 secs on genuine street radials. It was stock low comp with a Crower street beast cam for a 351C and a Holley Street Dominator intake and 780 carb. With headers, this thing would lay rubber for 200 yds from a standing start with no brakes used and 3.89:1 gears with the stock C6 auto and convertor. Hypereutectic pistons @ 9:1 comp are still available if you look around and a mild cam and good intake and headers really wake these torquy motors up

[johncharlesb]

I currently have two Clevelands and know a bit about the line. The engine was designed by the same guy that did big block Chevys. If you look at the two engines heads without valve covers they look very similar with port canted valves. The 351C and 351M-400 are good strong relaible motors that will make more power per cubic inch than any crossplane motor (yes, more than your fucking Hemi).

I agree with what BDKW1 offered and will add some more.

No Clevelands in any US trucks except Rancheros.

The overheating thing is from running a Windsor thermostat; Cleveland thermostats have a restrictor to keep the coolant from recirculating into the block. Panteras overheated, but they have twenty feet of radiator hose and crappy radiators too.

The 400 came out in 70 with a small block bolt pattern in LTDs and shit. These blocks are rare. All the rest have large block bolt pattern. The 351M was a destroked 400 designed to replace the discontinued US Cleveland. The 400-351M engines have larger bearings than the Cleveland and longer decks. Just about everything else matches up. The oil pans, heads, cams, timing covers, etc are interchangeable. Being smog era motors these engines usually have the cam timing back 4 degrees and run dished pistons. The pistons are typically pretty deep in the holes too. This gave them the bad rap on power. You can make a lot of power with one of these engines and not have 720lbs of 460. You can swap in a 460, but it is going to have the same issues with low compression pistons, crap timing and probably running D3 heads.

The heads on the later 400 and 351M motors have a slow exhaust port. If you want to put in anything other than a RV cam, you will need to swap out the heads to a Cleveland head. 351C 2v heads are a direct replacement. The intake and exhaust are the same size and bolt pattern. There are Aussie heads too that have the 2v configuration with a smaller closed combustion chamber and better compression. If you want to go big you can put on 4v Cleveland heads, but you will need 4v intake with spacers and 4v headers. I think someone on FTE was running 70 Mustang headers. Edelbrock makes a dual plane peformer, T Meyer has pistons and the Chinese make cheap knockoffs of everything. There are some bad ass aftermarket heads available too. The aftermarket support has really grown within the last five years for this engine. There are new blocks in iron and aluminum as well as a variety of different heads and manifolds (stay away from Edlebrock heads, they flow worse than stock 2v).

If it was mine I would build it one of two ways:
1. 400 crank, Edelbrok Torker intake, 351C 4v open chamber heads, a big 351C cam, and an 850 double pumper
2. stock with a 400 crank, RV cam, Performer intake, and a 600 Holley.

That numbers dummy guy is pretty disrespectful of other people. Those types are the reason I don't spend any time over at FTE.

A good 351C forum:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

[AussieRod]

Good info, JC. I have some amendments, though.
All 2V Clevland, 400M and 351M cylinder heads are the same small port, open chamber hydraulic valve gear heads. The aussie small chamber head is unique as it was cast to fit the 302C (351C with a 3" stroke crank and long 6.025" rods) we used here from 1971 to 1983 in both cars and trucks. It is identical to the open chamber head except for the chamber size which is 58cc. Fitting these to a 351 2V will net about 12.9:1 compression. Once 351C production stopped, the 351W 2V filled the gap, along with the 400M to replace the obsolete FE engines in trucks and large sedans (LTD, etc.). Due to the high demand for the 351W engine and having nothing else to fill the gap, the 351W crank was fitted to the 400M block, and used long compression height pistons (far cheaper to make than new longer rods) to fill the bore. In the late 70's, Ford decided to streamline engine production, and with the canted Clevland head being harder to make meet tougher emmision standards, the engine line was phased out. This left the 5.0LW, 5.8LW and 7.5L engines to fill the light and medium truck market. The 4.9L six was kept as a cheaper fuel efficient engine for the budget buyer. Anything I left out? Feel free to correct or to add.

[johncharlesb]

The 75 351M-400 head casting was changed. The exhaust was changed slightly and there is not enough metal to port out the air injection bump. The cast number is D5 and it will have a M in the corner of the head excluding the 78 400, which will be blank. The cast number is under the head accessed via the intake manifold/lifter valley and a mirror (pure brilliance), but you can check the date code under the valve cover. If it is after 75 it will be a smog head, service head or a SVO/Roush/Yates head (eg 7f7 that is 1977 July).

400s are just 400s, not 400Ms. The snouts are different between 351M and 351w cranks. The weights are a lot bigger too with the M. I think the bearing sizes are the same though. To change a 351M to a 400 requires a new crank and pistons, but the rods are the same.

Pre 75 casting numbers for Clevelands and 400s from High Performance Ford Parts Interchange:
D0AE-E and -J 2V Open chamber
D0AE-G,-H,-M,-N,-R 4V Closed chamber
D1AE-AA and -CB 2V Open chamber
D1AE-GA 4V Closed chamber
D1ZE-DA 4V (CJ) Open chamber
D1ZE-B (Boss 351) Closed chamber
D2ZE-A (HO) Open chamber
D3ZE-AA (CJ) Open chamber

SVO and Yates cast a bunch of heads too like E2M3 and A331

[ChaseTruck754]

Cleavor was a 351W block with Cleavland heads on it. You have to drill the heads for water passages into the manifold and they require a special intake.

Thanks for setting me straight. I've been known to be a motor moron at times. Well, just a moron mostly...

That numbers dummy guy is pretty disrespectful of other people. Those types are the reason I don't spend any time over at FTE.

Let the other idiots scare you away from FTE - not Number... That's just Bill. While I will be the 1st to admit he can be a pain in the ass, it's his personality and it "reads" funny/off on a forum. He's that way in person as well and when you talk to him in person and see this you realize there is no cruel/harsh intent there - it's just how he is/talks. He's a parts guy and knows what part goes where and on what car specifically. He gets all confused/weirded out when idiots like me try putting kingpin I-beams from a 70's truck on a ranger. This, and his "harsh" tone make it so I somewhat avoid him as well. BUT, I will also say he is VERY helpful if you need something old looked up or parts info. He goes out of his way to help others with oddball parts info. Before I had ever really met him or had more than 20 posts on FTE he gave me his home phone number and invited me over to look through his books and microfiche to locate some parts info I was after.

[cwrisley]

The 4.9L six was kept as a cheaper fuel efficient engine for the budget buyer.

I wish, the 4.9L in my Bronco gets about 12mpg......that was before the 35" BFG's.......

[AussieRod]

The 4.9L six was kept as a cheaper fuel efficient engine for the budget buyer.

I wish, the 4.9L in my Bronco gets about 12mpg......that was before the 35" BFG's.......

try re-gearing to help it out