Doing it all over again...

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Here's a topic I would like everyone's opinion on. "If you did it all over again"

There are a lot of guests on this forum and probably quite a few people that don't know where to start on a Bronco build. This forum has an absolute wealth of knowledgeable and experienced people to share their thoughts.

Many will only get to a mild-mid level build. What stock vehicle equipment would you start with and why?? If you started another build. I am talking about an overall goal of C&T Beams, probably on coilovers up front and good leafs and shocks out back.

Many seem to go for the 92-96 years. What are the pros and cons? What factory equipment options are best? What are the weak links in these years?
I don't see many 87-91 GFB Builds, maybe I am not paying attention though. What about the 80-86 years? Obviously, the 78-79 gets the cool factor points, but no TTB.

I look forward to hearing all the different opinions! Could be a good thread to pin for new guys looking to get a Bronco to read.

cs_drums · Post by **cs_drums** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:45 pm

Ok, I’ll get on a soap box haha.

1. Budget- come up with a real idea of what you can afford to spend. Speed, realizability and cheap; you can only have 2. Its sounds like a joke but I always recommend trying to figure out what everything is gonna cost, then double it, that’s your real ballpark budget.

2. It will only be as good as its weakest link. Every part from the suspension, to the drivetrain to the OEM parts left over. People tend to go big on the suspension goodies and run out of money for the supporting goodies; coolers, drivetrain etc. I’d take a Stock width Bronco that’s dialed top to bottom over a wide bronco cageless with no drivetrain to back it.

3. Last but not least. Cage, cage, cage. It not only keeps you safe but it’s really the foundation for the vehicle. Putting long trace with out a cage is asking the truck to pull itself apart. For some reason caging seems to end up last on the list for a lot of people. I’ve rolled my bronco, trust me you don’t get to decide when or if it’s gonna happen.

My $.02 anyway, haha

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Tchajagos · Post by **Tchajagos** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:59 pm

A cage is very important on anything gofast. Most people save it for last because it’s so expensive but it’s the only thing that will save your life on the truck.

I would say do the suspension before the motor.

cs_drums · Post by **cs_drums** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Priorities for me-

1. Cage
2. Drivetrain
3. Suspension
4. Creature comforts, comms, GPS etc
5. Motor
6. Bling

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Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:08 pm

I agree that the cage is a very big deal!! Suspension and motor work can go far and wide.
I was looking for more of "What building block to start with" on this. For instance: I owned a 95 MAF 302, E40D, push button 4x4. I was amazed how much different it felt driving a guys 94, 351, stick shift truck. I also liked the manual transfer case. I didn't care for all the electronic crap on the 95 either. The PSOM, ABS, Etc...
I had the opportunity to drive a 1985 recently that had a nice 351 with some bolt on parts and nice 9" rear end. I kind of dig the mid 80's body style for my next one.

ChaseTruck754 · Post by **ChaseTruck754** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:10 pm

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. I'll get on my soap box and add my piece as well...

Like others have said - a cage is important for the go fast stuff. If you will only be using the rig at lower speeds and taking the family camping I'd say you can argue your way out of really needing one. You have to have self control on the skinny pedal though! Many of us do not.

Major thing is to try & keep the snowball from happening. Keep the rig running & enjoy it! I am currently suffering from poor decisions here... My builds always turn into a "well if I'm doing X, I may as well do Y & Z as well". Or "It's only X more $, and XX more time in the build to go full race, so why not". I have a hard time throttling things back, or keeping my dreams under control. I have fab skills and time really used to be no issue or me. So my project undertakings were BIG. Life happened, shop went bye-bye, kids came, etc. and 15+ years, 5 projects, etc. later and I've got nothing currently to go enjoy. I do have some bitchin fab yard art that's all 1/2 done though!!!
Luckily I enjoy fab almost as much as driving the toys. I now sneak it in when I can. Which is very tough with 2 young kids. I've been working on a filter mount for my crew cab off and on for like 2 weeks now. That's what happens when you want some fancy, bitchin looking part for something as stupid as a support mount that takes about 5 hours overall to design & fab and you get maybe 20 minutes a day to work on it...

Anyway, I'd also say figure out what you REALLY will use and/or need to go enjoy the truck & use it, and try & stick to that. While most people will benefit from a suspension upgrade, not everyone needs coilovers and a triple bypass. Making decisions to keep cost down by buying what you will use vs. the coolest race shocks out will keep you from digging a hole budget wise. I totally agree with trying (notice I said trying - we all fail here!) to figure a budget & stick to it! Again, figure what you think it's going to cost and double it. Minimum! If you are going to build it yourself - take the time you think it will take & quadruple it! Unless that is you own a shop, have been doing this for years & know exactly how to build what you want & how long it will take. Then again if you had that you wouldn't be asking this question I don't think.

If I had to do it all over again, which really is where I'm about at now... I'd pick up a cheap, reliable, RUNNING & DRIVING project (70's ford F series, 91-94 exploder, 80-94 ranger or 80-96 bronco) and gradually start throwing parts as it as I enjoyed using it along the way. With a solid PLAN and a set budget in mind so I don't get some crazy snowball going again. Any of the above vehicles can be very capable and fun with "minimal" mods. A cage, a simple cut & turn, leafs & a shock upgrade will go a long way. It can also put a nice dent in your wallet quickly!

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:40 pm

Completely agree! The main use will greatly sway decisions. I too have the overthinking snowball problem with most any projects! LOL

One of the reasons I decided to sell the last Bronco was purpose and use. Mine was nice enough to sell and choose something of more project status. I would rather start with a half gutted rig with some decent upgraded parts to the drive line and/or motor, rather than a nice interior and all stock.

ChaseTruck754 · Post by **ChaseTruck754** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:55 pm

I agree. My "perfect" project purchase would be a truck that was ugly & a bit beat in the body but with a strong & reliable, well maintained driveline. Body parts will often get replaced with fiberglass anyway, or a fugly truck may keep people from giving it a second glance = a win in my book. It's just often harder to find something that somebody only maintained mechanically vs. visually. You tend to either get an overall well maintained & good looking vehicle & pay for it, or one that's been used & abused all over - vs. just a beat body. A cream puff that's been in an accident can be the perfect score - as long as no major damage was done to the frame or drivetrain & it really is completely superficial.

DMbronco · Post by **DMbronco** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Good points above.

I will say, in a perfect world it will always be faster, easier, and cheaper to find one that is built CORRECTLY.

It takes time, the right opportunity, and cash to do it that way of course, but I've seen a truck like CHO's come up for sale at 40k
and thought WTF have I been doing wasting all this time, planning, money when I'll end up in the same ballpark myself. On leafs haha!

Alas, I am like a lot of others and dipped my toe in before I dove off the deep end, but I will say there is a lot of benefit to reinventing the wheel a few times along the way.

1. Frame of reference. Unless you have a ton of buddies with trucks, you might not have the chance to learn the capabilities of a mid or long travel rig.
I ran my rig on coil springs with 5100s for a few years before I went long travel.
As someone who never did any high speed stuff, it allowed me to learn to drive the truck, and as I was able to push its limits it gave me the motivation to upgrade.
A buddy who recently sold his truck mentioned how he couldn't really appreciate how well it worked because he had gone directly from stock to longtravel.
Now he is in a midtravel truck and while I know he wouldn't trade back- it does allow him to really understand how well his TTB worked.
2.Budget. A lot of things can be done in stages,as funds accumulate and deals are found. Suspension components can be sold for a decent recoup of funds as you upgrade.
I got most of my dollars of the front ends I ran previously.
3. You might be better able to find the line at which you'll be happy, before you push too far past the point of practicality.
4. Knowledge. If you are along for the build, you become more aware of every aspect of the truck- this goes a long way if something goes less than stellar in the silt.
5. Potential for specialized use. My truck is a good example of this; all kinds of stuff that most wouldn't go out of their way to account for, but made it onto my list and into the build.
Like selectable lockers, keeping cruise control and AC, exterior tire carrier that will hold up to abuse, mounting the cage and body on poly mounts, keeping the shocks under the bed and avoiding
headsets, etc.
Protection stuff like bumpers,rock sliders and skid plates. Cosmetic stuff like inner fender liners and functional stuff like roofskins on the cage- it's nice to have something exactly the way you
want it

Try to figure out the intended use as best as you can.
Things evolve inevitably, but the more accurately you can predict what you'll want/need to use the truck for- the better off you'll be.

To Brian and Steve's point- the cage is the most important aspect of a bronco you'll go fast in. Nothing else should be a greater priority than the safety of you and passengers.
It will also keep the truck alive if you intend to run it hard and for many years.

The way I see it, the question of to cage or not to cage dictates all other decisions.

If you are going to build a frame mounted cage- the interior will be gutted, dash pulled, suspension seats, the body will be cut, you will most likely be tying into an engine cage, running glass,
custom bumpers, maybe tubbing the rear, etc.

At that point, you don't really care about cosmetics, interior, paint, etc with what you're starting with. Which is good, as even the 'newest' of these trucks is 22 years old.
Complete cages run in the ballpark of 3-10 grand, (just looked up Solo's cage installed at 3k- SMOKING deal), so consider that 'buy-in' to play for keeps.

To me, the cost of the cage is dollars and comfort. No matter what steps you take to keep it quiet, to do it right will negatively impact your comfort and noise levels to varying degrees.
This may limit the type and length of driving you are willing or able to do. I wouldn't hesitate to run mine up the coast of CA or up to the snow, but I incurred extra time and cost to keep this option open.

For me, the upside is there on every other level. The truck works much better with a cage, period. I would rather run a caged rig on coil springs than a long travel without enhanced structural integrity.
Also, a truck with a well built cage will never be wasted money, provided it doesn't live on jackstands. Covering your ass is never wasted funds, and quality fabrication is not getting any cheaper.

If it's gonna have a cage, then I'd be looking for the strongest runner possible- something some filthy animal maintained from a mechanical standpoint but scares away buyers because it's nasty inside, has bad paint etc. Something with minor damage like Steve said, or I always thought something that needed a tranny for a good deal would put you ahead by rebuilding the most expensive component right up front and know you can tick that box.

Why not a 92-96 for the extra power and good looks? You can find roller 351's in 95-96 models, slap a valve body and cooler on the e4OD, and go have some fun.
80-86 trucks had 351w/c6/9" rear end available IIRC. Not a whole lot of 87-91'sI've seen but Aaron's is as badass as they come.

If you decide a cage is out of budget or beyond practicality, I'd think the criteria would shift and you could build a super useful rig that was nice and civilized.

Spending a bit more on something newer and cleaner, some cut and turned beams, some deavers and 5100s, that truck would hang with most and drive really nice on the street.

Short list of stuff I would do first, in order of bang for buck performance on my '96

1. punisher valve body
2. gears and tune
3. lockers, or other traction device. Detroit or ARB, both made a huge difference

those three factors improved the performance of the truck exponentially

Shorter list of stuff I would not do again:

1. try to make it work with 8.8"'s for so long. Like blondes in college, they just never seemed to last
2. Wilwood brakes. Seems like everyone I run with who has them are like mine- squealing like a stuck pig in the dust.
Tried 3 different compound of pads, numerous 'embedding' processes- never again.

Re: 8.8"'s; I know plenty of people who have had good luck with them in broncos with hard miles. I am harder on my truck than most, so driving style plays a huge part in how far you can push. I happened across an opportunity and picked up a fabricated 9" 35 spline because I figured out what a big dumb animal I am and I got tired of replacing axles.

To that point, there is a reason I opted to stick with a relatively lightweight combo of aluminum wheels and 35's- I dont think running 37's will help my reliability, power, or braking- I am learning my limits.

Speaking of limits- back to the best question; what are you going to do with it? How hard will you drive it, and how long will you own it?

If the answers are go fast, hard, and a long time, then to me, something like that floater 9", a cage, custom bumpers are all things that will LAST on a truck and are a worthwhile investment.

I said investment, HAHA!

Seriously, outside of guys with shops, skills, and high end clientele, no one is building these trucks and getting their money back.
I certainly passed a point long ago where I came to terms that to push forward would mean I would not plan on selling the truck because too much of my ass would be attached to it.

I am absolutely cool with that reality, and would do it all over again if I had the chance.

I am convinced that these broncos are the Swiss Army knife of the Southwest terrain and are one of the most useful tools to navigate all of this great space we have access to.
I can leave the coast and be at full throttle across Ocotillo within 2 hrs. And air up and drive home the same night doing 90 with cruise control all the way home.
They look nice on the street, and can go topless on the beach. And less and less are out there. And the ones that are left are the ones who received the love along the way.
The shitboxes that remain will die off, and the ones that live on will stand tall.
Pretty soon here, the only broncos left under 25 years old will be the cute little new ones <-------------

P.S. I see a ton of rigs like the chebby posted above- they certainly look the part on first glance- 37's, lightbars, 10" wider, glass front clips and bedsides. More power to the bro dawgs I suppose.

Substance first and style second is my preference...

Tchajagos · Post by **Tchajagos** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:51 pm

The later trucks (92-96) have a lot more creature comforts and are comfortable doing 70-80 mph with decent mpg on the freeways.
I like to look of the 80-86 bullnose ones myself but bad gas mileage and no over drive make it a little less comfortable to drive.

Stan the Man · Post by **Stan the Man** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:39 pm

I'd make sure everything on the truck is sound and reliable before dumping money into C&T beams, coilovers, cage, and full float rear. Also, shop for quality used parts, but make sure things are cohesive.

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:04 am

This is what I love about you guys!! DM, you are on point and thank you for such insight! I am definitely a guy that likes to see and feel the different stages. Stock, mid-travel, etc...
Well, I have never really owned anything "long travel" except a sand rail, and that was short lived. I don't see myself ever dropping 30-40K on an already built rig. Takes the fun out of it for me and I am here to learn it all. I like to know how every nut and bolt went in and make sensible upgrades where needed. Time to save $$ and look for that right deal! Like the Chevy above, maybe I will come across the Brorunner Bronco that someone has rolled with no cage and has a handful of goodies for cheap! LOL

Tchajagos wrote:The later trucks (92-96) have a lot more creature comforts and are comfortable doing 70-80 mph with decent mpg on the freeways.
I like to look of the 80-86 bullnose ones myself but bad gas mileage and no over drive make it a little less comfortable to drive.

I also like the Bull Nose look. I could be wrong, but I think certain 85-86 had the 351W and AOD tranny. I don't believe the 351 in those years had FI though and I am not sure that I want to deal with carb.

It would be really fun to do a 78-79 converted to TTB. I am sure that would be a huge bite to chew, but it's only money! Right?! LOL

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:17 am

DMbronco wrote:Good points above.

Speaking of limits- back to the best question; what are you going to do with it? How hard will you drive it, and how long will you own it?

If the answers are go fast, hard, and a long time, then to me, something like that floater 9", a cage, custom bumpers are all things that will LAST on a truck and are a worthwhile investment.

I said investment, HAHA!

Seriously, outside of guys with shops, skills, and high end clientele, no one is building these trucks and getting their money back.
I certainly passed a point long ago where I came to terms that to push forward would mean I would not plan on selling the truck because too much of my ass would be attached to it.

I am absolutely cool with that reality, and would do it all over again if I had the chance.

I am convinced that these broncos are the Swiss Army knife of the Southwest terrain and are one of the most useful tools to navigate all of this great space we have access to.
I can leave the coast and be at full throttle across Ocotillo within 2 hrs. And air up and drive home the same night doing 90 with cruise control all the way home.
They look nice on the street, and can go topless on the beach. And less and less are out there. And the ones that are left are the ones who received the love along the way.
The shitboxes that remain will die off, and the ones that live on will stand tall.
Pretty soon here, the only broncos left under 25 years old will be the cute little new ones <-------------

Substance first and style second is my preference...

That is exactly it! Being able to drive it a couple hours out, floor it through some desert terrain, and drive it back home. Maybe some camping or exploring type trips, like Minty's did. Hopefully someday meet up with a group of you all for a little run. Not a race truck, but capable with a pinch of speed!

ChaseTruck754 · Post by **ChaseTruck754** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:39 pm

Needles929 wrote:I also like the Bull Nose look. I could be wrong, but I think certain 85-86 had the 351W and AOD tranny. I don't believe the 351 in those years had FI though and I am not sure that I want to deal with carb.

It would be really fun to do a 78-79 converted to TTB. I am sure that would be a huge bite to chew, but it's only money! Right?! LOL

87 was 1st year of EFi if I remember right. AOD's were also 87 if I remember right. 9" rears have been randomly found in trucks up to early '87 but 8.8's started going in some late '85's. My opinion is with the benefits of the newer trucks it's almost cheaper/easier to start with one & swap in a 9" vs. buy an older truck for the rear axle. Especially since that older 9" will probably need a bit of a re-build & to be re-geared and a locker added just like the 8.8 would. If you REALLY like that fugly 80-86 front end (sorry - my opinion is coming out here & I have no love for that style) then you can still swap one on to the newer trucks as well. Anything can be done with enough time & money & realistically it's not THAT involved.

And I too drool over the idea of a 70's truck with TTB. I've seen TTB swapped in to older & older bodies swapped on to TTB chassis. I've got a hankering to do this & have thought out both ways a bit. My current choice would be to swap on a 73-79 truck body. I want to do a supercab, short bed truck & drop on a 70's crew cab. Or possibly a std. cab, long bed truck & swap on a 70's supercab. Either way I'd want to shorten up the wheel base slightly, and of course make more work for myself by having to deal with shortening the bed lol.

redrdr67 · Post by **redrdr67** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:15 pm

ChaseTruck754 wrote: I've been working on a filter mount for my crew cab off and on for like 2 weeks now. That's what happens when you want some fancy, bitchin looking part for something as stupid as a support mount that takes about 5 hours overall to design & fab and you get maybe 20 minutes a day to work on it...

LOL. been there done that several times. And I totally forget about all those parts on my truck.

All of the advise given here is true. If you choose to ignore it, you'll end up remembering the "what not to do" list.

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:01 am

I am 100% down on the cage is a must. I just deposited $1k towards my cage fund. might be silly considering that I don't have a Bronco yet to put it on. I figure there will always be Broncos for sale and I might as well commit to the cage now. LOL

For the frame: Is there any real differences between the 83-96 frames? I hear people talk about the 80-82 having extra holes, or being "Swiss Cheese"
Are the body mounts typically in the same places?

Tchajagos · Post by **Tchajagos** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:39 am

Needles929 wrote:I am 100% down on the cage is a must. I just deposited $1k towards my cage fund. might be silly considering that I don't have a Bronco yet to put it on. I figure there will always be Broncos for sale and I might as well commit to the cage now. LOL

For the frame: Is there any real differences between the 83-96 frames? I hear people talk about the 80-82 having extra holes, or being "Swiss Cheese"
Are the body mounts typically in the same places?

The only difference is the front frame horns. 92-96 have accordion frame horns for front impact. Also on the later years the frame was reinforced along the top under the doors with a welded on plate from the factory.

alpinejd3 · Post by **alpinejd3** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:04 pm

I can't speak about too many differences from the years 91-96 and why you would prefer one over the other, but can share my experience. I would recommend trying to check out and whenever possible ride in a few different broncos. So many good guys on this forum I know if you came out to the desert you can get a wide range of input and experience sitting in our rigs. Ride in a dialed setup with leafs, ride in a linked bronco (short course style and traditional trailing arms), ride in a stretched bronco! Just so you know where to focus your money and also you can get a sense of how each of these rigs will fit within your desired use.

I purchased a bone stock 96 with a 5.8 and had plans of a "full build" including it being fully caged and link without a stretch. After adding up costs and timelines I decided the full build was not for me, and went out and found (or it found me) a full Solo built bronco that was setup with a full cage and leafs. It had many thousands of Baja miles on it and was very capable, reliable, and proven, but with the 5.0 and its suspension and details of the cage it was not exactly what I wanted. I had always wanted more out of the rear suspension and like others have said it escalated quickly, if I was going to cut tubes I might as well link, and if I'm linking I had always wanted to stretch a bronco, and for what I wanted out of the bronco after all this work of stretching I wanted 120" or more wheelbase.

I am happy with where my bronco is at, but to be honest if you told me the time and money I would have at this point and have it where it is something went wrong along the way, it should be 100% finished inside and out, rewired and all. I think looking back it was a-lot of two steps forward one step back. So my basic advice is to plan much more than I did so you can save the time and money on mistakes and redoing things, and also to reach out and spend some time looking over and whenever possible riding in some of the awesome machines guys on here have.

John-

Needles929 · Post by **Needles929** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:21 pm

That is a great idea! I do try and keep my eye out for events and outings. I would definitely like to experience a couple different set-ups in person.

RyanDS650X · Post by **RyanDS650X** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:32 pm

Needles929 wrote:That is a great idea! I do try and keep my eye out for events and outings. I would definitely like to experience a couple different set-ups in person.

Anytime amigo!