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First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:19 am
by Dezertbronco
Ok guys, this is an area that is un charted for me. I need help.
I have a trusty roadmaster, and a PCI antenna, the roof mount kind.
The question is where do I mount the antenna? Rugged told me I needed it to be in the center of the vehicle to be effective. I will mount the radio in the center console.
Anyone got any photos or pointers of the antenna install, that's a big hole to drill in the wrong spot.
Thanks
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:52 am
by Rmc
I'm no expert ( as a matter of fact I have 2 of them I need to install myself) but I recall the guys who've done it saying install the antenna at the back middle of the roof ( where the dome light is but outside). They were saying its for grounding purposes , Not sure on any other details.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:09 am
by robertcrav
I'm no expert either but that location is convenient because you can remove the dome light and drill straight up... but the center of the roof is generally the best because it gives the biggest ground plane (I think that is the correct term)
I have read about guys laying a wire mesh inside the shell roof to get the shell to be some what conductive as well
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:39 pm
by Wrightracing.net
In a perfect world the center of the roof is the most optimal place to put the Antenna. That will give you an omni directional receive and transmit. Because of the dual wall construction of the Ford roof it makes it difficult to place the antenna there. Like Robert said, above the dome light is the easiest and the placement only makes the receive and transmit a little more directional towards to front of the vehicle. If you are going to run a roof rack or a light bar it will effect the radios performance. The best thing to do is run an antenna that does not require a ground plane.
The idea of adding mesh inside does nothing, old wives tail. To make a good ground plane it would be best to have a 3' circle of flat metal with the antenna in the center with no metal above the base of the antenna.
For the coax, run it down the inside of the B pillar. Make sure not to coil the coax or run it parallel to power wires. Make sure to remove any paint under the mount where the sheet metal touches the mount. This makes the antenna ground to the body properly. You may want to consider an RFI noise filter on the power wire for the radio. Also if you are running an intercom, cut the ground wire on the intercom power wire. I know it sounds strange but the intercom grounds through the radio interface cable. By lifting the ground it eliminates a ground loop from the radio to the intercom.
Lastly, so not run the radio interface cable parallel to any power wires or the coax. Never zip tie them together.
For the noise suppressor, I like the Kenwood KLF-2
line filter. They are used in government and police vehicles and have proven to work well and survive a lot of abuse.
I hope that helps.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 4:58 pm
by PaulW
We use a penetration thru the metal roof. Its a low cost device called an NMO. Buy it at PCI to match your antenna or go to Ham Radio Outlet and get one. There are various configurations that match the various antennas sold. This means we cannot tell you which NMO to get until you tell us what ant you have or show us a pic of it where it mounts at the base.
For a Bronco the install is problematic due to the double roof This is why Wright said to squeeze it in the area of the dome light. My ant is is the middle of the roof which according to theory is the best place and I had to make a big hole in the interior roof shell so I would have access.
Extra feature would be an ant protector so the big Baja branches wont destroy your ant.
Paul
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:20 pm
by Wrightracing.net
I like the antenna protectors Paul and Chris use. I want to make a Non metal version for my Bronco when it goes back together. The reason I prefer the non metal version, is due to signal reflection which can be bad for the radio finals over time. I might still do a metal version but then I would go to a Non Ground plane version which would be better for my setup anyways do to my Light bar.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:26 pm
by damon1272
Outside of the good advice that has been given run your power direct to the battery or have a direct source of power that is triggered by the key. Cigarette lighters just do not last nor provide a consistent power for the radio when it gets hot or the unit gets dirty.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:34 pm
by Dezertbronco
The plan is to install the ant above the dome light, anyone have a pic of the ant protector?
I will be running straight to the battery.
I will also have a cb in it, will this affect anything?
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:38 am
by Rmc
I think these guys can answer much better than myself but for some reason I'm thinking yes and no. No because its a seperate bandwidth of broadcasted signal but yes because the cb antenna may cause interference due to the other antennas winding being in such close proximity to the other broadcasting antenna signal? I really don't know but I'm very curious as to what answers these seasoned guys give. Great question man.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:02 am
by PaulW
I have two ants near each other with the metal protector very close to one. That ant is connected to my Kenwood and always used for local rides where range in not important. It is a 1/4 wave ant. The other ant is several inches further aft and is the usual +/- 50" tall one and is connected to my ICOM race radio. Both work as intended and both probably have some unmeasured reduction* in performance due to the metal protector. No complaints from persons that listen to my transmissions. Weatherman has always been happy.
Now for sure these two radios have major conflicts when transmitting on close freqs. My operation is use one to listen and one to listen and transmit. Never use the radios on the same freq. Both have excellent SWRs.
* David, look at the plots of whip antenna radiation patterns and try to deduce the effect of a metal protector. My conclusion is it should not be very much or maybe nothing??
And that brings up another issue caused by the springs some use. What intent of the spring is to save it when a big branch hit it. The down side is the radiation pattern points to random directions while driving thru the bumps and whoops and your reception and transmissions are greatly reduced. Got rid of my spring and sure enough reception while traveling was significantly improved. Here on CO one of the trail leaders has a spring and it is so bad that his transmissions are intermittent (CB). And I can see his ant thrashing around. When he stops his transmissions are fine.
Question about where to get +12 in a Bronco. I use the Fat #10 hot wire under the dash near the steering wheel. Its a direct feed to the batt. Regardless whether you use that wire or run a standalone to the batt you will still want a filter.
Question about a CB and a VHF ant , both on the metal roof. Don't worry, you will never need both at the same time. An unused second ant near a live one is nowhere as bad as a metal protector.
If the OP still has questions on all this teche stuff remember that Google is your friend. Lots of good info outh there from the HAM guys. Many of us can still answer your questions.
Somebody needs to post a pic of an ant protector. My Bronco is 800 miles from where I am and I cannot take a pic.
Ant protectors do not solve the problem as eventually the whip will break off at the bottom. sigh.., just buy a tuned spare whip.
PaulW
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:26 am
by Baja
Wrightracing.net wrote:In a perfect world the center of the roof is the most optimal place to put the Antenna. That will give you an omni directional receive and transmit. Because of the dual wall construction of the Ford roof it makes it difficult to place the antenna there. Like Robert said, above the dome light is the easiest and the placement only makes the receive and transmit a little more directional towards to front of the vehicle. If you are going to run a roof rack or a light bar it will effect the radios performance. The best thing to do is run an antenna that does not require a ground plane.
The idea of adding mesh inside does nothing, old wives tail. To make a good ground plane it would be best to have a 3' circle of flat metal with the antenna in the center with no metal above the base of the antenna.
For the coax, run it down the inside of the B pillar. Make sure not to coil the coax or run it parallel to power wires. Make sure to remove any paint under the mount where the sheet metal touches the mount. This makes the antenna ground to the body properly. You may want to consider an RFI noise filter on the power wire for the radio. Also if you are running an intercom, cut the ground wire on the intercom power wire. I know it sounds strange but the intercom grounds through the radio interface cable. By lifting the ground it eliminates a ground loop from the radio to the intercom.
All excellent advice. I used a non ground plane antenna above the dome light method. I have a 65w Kenwood and I left my friends place in Hesperia and we were still hitting each other when I got to the 210Fwy. Through the mountains and all. You can say that I am pretty happy with the performance of my install.
Lastly, so not run the radio interface cable parallel to any power wires or the coax. Never zip tie them together.
For the noise suppressor, I like the Kenwood KLF-2
line filter. They are used in government and police vehicles and have proven to work well and survive a lot of abuse.
I hope that helps.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:34 am
by Baja
Sorry. Not sure how I posted in the middle of that quote. Here is what I had to say......
All excellent advice. I used a non ground plane antenna above the dome light method. I have a 65w Kenwood and I left my friends place in Hesperia and we were still hitting each other when I got to the 210Fwy. Through the mountains and all. You can say that I am pretty happy with the performance of my install.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:33 am
by Seabass
I mounted mine in the center of the cab roof by using a hole saw to cut through the double wall roof. Worked awesome.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:34 pm
by Dezertbronco
Great info guys, anyone have a spare mic for a roadmaster?
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:04 pm
by Rmc
Baja wrote:Sorry. Not sure how I posted in the middle of that quote. Here is what I had to say......
All excellent advice. I used a non ground plane antenna above the dome light method. I have a 65w Kenwood and I left my friends place in Hesperia and we were still hitting each other when I got to the 210Fwy. Through the mountains and all. You can say that I am pretty happy with the performance of my install.
Holy crap! That's good range considering the terrign that's amazing! Not exactly a straight shot seeing as how line of sight would put 2 mountain sides in between you.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:36 am
by Dezertbronco
Finished my install yesterday, turned out great, is it okay to coil up the extra coax? It's coiled under my center console. Now if I could just find a 5 pin mic for a roadmaster.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:28 am
by mesquito_creek
To be safe, I would not coil the extra cable if you don't have to. It can attenuate the signal and impact your signal quality. Best to cut off extra coil and re-solder a new PL 259, re-install and retune the antenna.
But if you don't have the access to what's needed, with shielded coax, you can move forward with what you are doing, .... just coil it as large as possible and/or route it in a manner to loose the coax best you can...
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:58 am
by agavelouis
Finished my install yesterday, turned out great, is it okay to coil up the extra coax? It's coiled under my center console. Now if I could just find a 5 pin mic for a roadmaster.
NO, do not coil excess coax. You will kill your range.
Stop by PCI at a MORE race and bring the bronco. One of their techs can cut and put a new end on it for $10 or so. Their labor is free, the PL259 end is about $8. Each "coil" will kill your range by 5-10% or more while inducing noise in your system.
In a pinch, run the length of extra coax in long straight lines making sure to not to come in close contact or near power wires for anything. A properly tuned antenna and high power 110watt radio can turn LED light bars on/off, make MSD box's kill the vehicle etc.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:21 am
by PaulW
Maybe? I think it depends on which coax is used. Lots of coax specs out there.
==========
With substandard coax coils are ok if the wires are distant from each other. Then they look like they are not coiled. No need for a tight coil on a big Bronco. Radio Shack sometimes have PL259s. A small soldering iron gives a professional attachment. Cut to length is always best but not to short in case of the need to re-route someday.
=============
agavelouis wrote:Finished my install yesterday, turned out great, is it okay to coil up the extra coax? It's coiled under my center console. Now if I could just find a 5 pin mic for a roadmaster.
NO, do not coil excess coax. You will kill your range.
Stop by PCI at a MORE race and bring the bronco. One of their techs can cut and put a new end on it for $10 or so. Their labor is free, the PL259 end is about $8. Each "coil" will kill your range by 5-10% or more while inducing noise in your system.
In a pinch, run the length of extra coax in long straight lines making sure to not to come in close contact or near power wires for anything. A properly tuned antenna and high power 110watt radio can turn LED light bars on/off, make MSD box's kill the vehicle etc.
Re: First radio install.
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:51 pm
by agavelouis
PaulW wrote:Maybe? I think it depends on which coax is used. Lots of coax specs out there.
With substandard coax coils are ok if the wires are distant from each other. Then they look like they are not coiled. No need for a tight coil on a big Bronco. Radio Shack sometimes have PL259s. A small soldering iron gives a professional attachment. Cut to length is always best but not to short in case of the need to re-route someday.
No coax likes to be in a coil. You must remember we are sending pretty crazy power through them compared to your house TV coax etc. Even the large coax used on the aerial antenna's need to be run out and not coiled. Their shielding is far superior to the small coax we run for the 50watt radios in the race/ chase trucks.