BajaF250

[cs_drums]

I want implying you were negating my research. I just had given up the idea of building a SD stroker. I too want to keep the smog man happy and keep my SD set up. I was joking because after hours and hours researching several threads on several forums everyone just kept telling me the only way to make it work was to change to MAF.

Smog legality and simplicity were my major concerns. I know nothing is simple but long term being able to just drop it off at the smog guy is the simple I am looking for. I don't mind putting more work/$$ off the bat to get a good working legal set up for the future.

Hopefully you will be as detailed in the process when you get to it as you have been in the reast of the build thread. I am hoping you can do some of the hard figurin for me haha.

[philofab]

I want implying you were negating my research. I just had given up the idea of building a SD stroker. I too want to keep the smog man happy and keep my SD set up. I was joking because after hours and hours researching several threads on several forums everyone just kept telling me the only way to make it work was to change to MAF.

Smog legality and simplicity were my major concerns. I know nothing is simple but long term being able to just drop it off at the smog guy is the simple I am looking for. I don't mind putting more work/$$ off the bat to get a good working legal set up for the future.

Hopefully you will be as detailed in the process when you get to it as you have been in the reast of the build thread. I am hoping you can do some of the hard figurin for me haha.

Build a stroker bottom end, use a CARB legal cam, carb legal intake and heads, leave all of the emissions equipment on, and tune your ECM with a TwEECer or Quarterhorse. The smog nazis will not be able to tell the displacement or the fact you have a non factory tune. A more efficient engine will actually pollute less, not more.

Finding a good tuner is the key. Without it your A/F ratio will be all over the place since the engine is so far from stock. Why spend 3-5K on parts for 100 hp when $500 in dyno tune/time will net you another 75 and better MPGs?

The only reason OEMs went to MAF was because it allowed the engine to stay in smog spec for a longer period of time when compensating for engine wear and changing fuels. If you take engine wear out of the picture a MAP based system can be just as efficient.

[BajaF250]

I want implying you were negating my research. I just had given up the idea of building a SD stroker. I too want to keep the smog man happy and keep my SD set up. I was joking because after hours and hours researching several threads on several forums everyone just kept telling me the only way to make it work was to change to MAF.

Smog legality and simplicity were my major concerns. I know nothing is simple but long term being able to just drop it off at the smog guy is the simple I am looking for. I don't mind putting more work/$$ off the bat to get a good working legal set up for the future.

Hopefully you will be as detailed in the process when you get to it as you have been in the reast of the build thread. I am hoping you can do some of the hard figurin for me haha.

Build a stroker bottom end, use a CARB legal cam, carb legal intake and heads, leave all of the emissions equipment on, and tune your ECM with a TwEECer or Quarterhorse. The smog nazis will not be able to tell the displacement or the fact you have a non factory tune. A more efficient engine will actually pollute less, not more.

Finding a good tuner is the key. Without it your A/F ratio will be all over the place since the engine is so far from stock. Why spend 3-5K on parts for 100 hp when $500 in dyno tune/time will net you another 75 and better MPGs?

The only reason OEMs went to MAF was because it allowed the engine to stay in smog spec for a longer period of time when compensating for engine wear and changing fuels. If you take engine wear out of the picture a MAP based system can be just as efficient.

Thanks Philo... this is the avenue I've got my eye on and pursuing... and for those very reasons. There is one other option that I'm looking into for the smog/ECU part... and that's once the engine is built, take it over to the dyno and have it tuned and then flash a chip... once the ECU is tuned and the chip installed (J3 port) it'll essentially be set... no tweecer and/or quarter horse. This will avoid any of the steep learning curve associated with those systems... I still need to research to see what direction I ultimately want to go... this is one of those long term projects and I still have time to determine my ultimate course of action.

[BajaF250]

I want implying you were negating my research. I just had given up the idea of building a SD stroker. I too want to keep the smog man happy and keep my SD set up. I was joking because after hours and hours researching several threads on several forums everyone just kept telling me the only way to make it work was to change to MAF.

Smog legality and simplicity were my major concerns. I know nothing is simple but long term being able to just drop it off at the smog guy is the simple I am looking for. I don't mind putting more work/$$ off the bat to get a good working legal set up for the future.

Hopefully you will be as detailed in the process when you get to it as you have been in the reast of the build thread. I am hoping you can do some of the hard figurin for me haha.

Hey Brian,

I'm of the very same mindset as Philo... and Philo has put it very succinctly. Get all the CARB parts and throw it together... you're not going to build a fire breather in any fashion, but you're goal is smogability and you should be able to make all that work. The biggest hurdle for all of this is the ECU, as you've well assessed. The solution may or may not be acceptable in either work effort or cost. I'm looking into it from the perspective... my computer (ECU) has been heavily used in street/track and thus heavily modified already... it uses an ICY1 Ford strategy and both Tweecer and Quarter Horse have modified that strategies to match somewhere close to my end state... in other words others have already done most of the tuning work to get to a baseline for me to start. I can start from their baseline and then adjust on the dyno. Philo is right when he says you'll need to run it on the dyno regardless of what method you use... you'll need to fine tune your setup to get the most from your unique configuration and ultimate goals.

Of note, I have many other projects on the fire right now and the engine project is really on the back burner, most likely won't be till next summer, a year from how before I even consider starting.

[ocejo]

What are these limitations I have read about speed density? Is it just certain cams that work with SD or are there other factors as to what can/cannot be done? In my case, being in the imperial valley, I only have to smog once, so staying compliant is not priority.

[cs_drums]

I didnt mean to derail your thread. Maybe you or Philo can educate the masses and post something in the tech forum on the potentials of a properly set up SD motor.

[ocejo]

sorry, I got carried away as well.

following along with the build, very interested.....

[BajaF250]

What are these limitations I have read about speed density? Is it just certain cams that work with SD or are there other factors as to what can/cannot be done? In my case, being in the imperial valley, I only have to smog once, so staying compliant is not priority.

Well, to put it succinctly, the biggest limitation to the SD system when it comes to upgrade is that the lookup table(s) have certain limitations (table size) and when the engine parameter requirements due to modification exceed the table boundaries the ECU can not control the motor with that specific PCM. As a matter of fact, SD systems are almost exclusively used in the hi dollar aftermarket race engine management systems such as the most popular MoTec systems. Plus, they are somewhat difficult to tune for the untrained (me). But, they are very tunable and it's not uncommon.

So, I'd say from the bigger perspective, I'd say the biggest limitation to speed density engine management is the inability to easily tune... thus the ever popular swap out to the MAF system for reasons Philo outlined.

[BajaF250]

So, I finally got the dash torn apart and determined a suitable "temporary" mounting spot for the new intercom. I purchased a Racer-X AR550 intercom with plugs for 4 positions, expandable up to 8. It has the input for an mp3 player (ipod) and cell phone. The front controls are squelch, volume and on/off. It has a power indicator light on the front as well as cell/phone and music input 3½mm input jacks (it also has a molex plug in the rear for all of your I/O needs, phone, ipod, gopro, etc). I chose that particular model specifically for the squelch/VOX feature. The race models only have constant "on" settings for the intercom and I wanted to use the VOX feature.

I finished building the interface cable (looks like an octopus) this last week (ran into some manufacturing problems, but it's expected and is part of the development process). I was able to get some time to install it this weekend. The install is merely temporary in nature as I have to redesign the dash and move the components around for maximum utilization (I haven’t gotten that far quite yet though). I also wanted to get it in to check cable lengths etc and it looks like I’ll have to shorten up some of the cords.

But, the good news is that it works GREAT. Everything works as designed. The radio is nice and clear, the intercom works fantastic and they operate independently. So, you have your basic radio operation without the headset and intercom and the intercom works without the radio, and when both are turned on… they work great together! The only thing I need to adjust is to bring in direct power from the battery to power the intercom unit. But, that’s pure install and it’s just running clean power.

Now, I’m going to run the intercom for a while to see if I can uncover any issues so I can address any potential issues. My headsets should be in by Tue and I’ll get Willie’s sets back soon!

[hobbyturnedobsession]

Wow Tom it looks amazing as usual.

[BajaF250]

Wow Tom it looks amazing as usual.

Hey Randy,
Well, the ss plate is going away and I'm moving the speaker as well... I think I'm going to inset the GPS there now. I'm seriously considering putting the intercom off to the passenger side to the right of the existing speaker placement. Still toying with a new dash layout...

Oh, the heater control is going where I've temporarily mounted the intercom (errrr, at least I think! ).

[BajaF250]

Something like this

[hobbyturnedobsession]

I like it! The only issue is you have to have a co driver if you want to change anything on the fly but every time ive seen minty your not alone.

[BajaF250]

Once the intercom is set, you really don't have to mess with it... and the volume for the radio is still controlled through the radio... so it's not out of reach.

[hobbyturnedobsession]

Wow that is cool! Ive never messed with a setup like that.

[BajaF250]

I didnt mean to derail your thread. Maybe you or Philo can educate the masses and post something in the tech forum on the potentials of a properly set up SD motor.

No derailing... good discussion... sorry I'm not more help, but I just haven't completed my research and decided my precise course of action... but I'm sticking with my SD system until I find out it's not going to work with my end state goals.

[BajaF250]

I didnt mean to derail your thread. Maybe you or Philo can educate the masses and post something in the tech forum on the potentials of a properly set up SD motor.

No derailing... good discussion... sorry I'm not more help, but I just haven't completed my research and decided my precise course of action... but I'm sticking with my SD system until I find out it's not going to work with my end state goals.

But, from what I've found out thus far, I should have a couple of options with my SD system tune and I'm confident it'll work well for what I'm aiming for.

[300]

Hey Tom,

So there is only a single volume control? I guess our intercom (old Comp Com) is rare because we have a volume control for each side (only two positions). I do like that yours is VOX and that you have a squelch, our airplane is like that. Our race intercom is hot all the time and you get all the pumper noise, breathing, etc. I am not sure that you will find that "once you get it set, you never have to mess with it". An example is the difference between when your wife is in the right seat and when Rick is over there, you will be reaching for that knob...........

In the race truck there is a wild variation between all the helmets, more specifically it is probably the mics, even though most were wired by PCI. Some you have to turn up when they get in, some you turn down. I am semi-shoppinng for a replacement intercom but really would like to have that individual volume control for each position. Our airplane intercom is a 4 postion but actually has a volume and squelch for the front two positions. Now that I think about it, the aircraft head sets have their own volume control, maybe the headsets you have are the same?

[BajaF250]

Hey Tom,

So there is only a single volume control? I guess our intercom (old Comp Com) is rare because we have a volume control for each side (only two positions). I do like that yours is VOX and that you have a squelch, our airplane is like that. Our race intercom is hot all the time and you get all the pumper noise, breathing, etc. I am not sure that you will find that "once you get it set, you never have to mess with it". An example is the difference between when your wife is in the right seat and when Rick is over there, you will be reaching for that knob...........

In the race truck there is a wild variation between all the helmets, more specifically it is probably the mics, even though most were wired by PCI. Some you have to turn up when they get in, some you turn down. I am semi-shoppinng for a replacement intercom but really would like to have that individual volume control for each position. Our airplane intercom is a 4 postion but actually has a volume and squelch for the front two positions. Now that I think about it, the aircraft head sets have their own volume control, maybe the headsets you have are the same?

Hey Don,

Yup, you're right... the intercom I have is only a single volume control (between driver/co-driver), but I have a much more limited use than you do in the race truck. I won't have near as many folks jumping in and out as you do. And I also am used to VOX and separate volume controls... that's what I'm experienced with in flying as well... but I've not run across a dual position controlled unit for our truck applications. You can get separate volume controls for the headsets as well, but I opted out on that feature due to my specific application. We shall see if that was wise!

I'm also used to using the race spec'd intercoms that have no VOX and really don't care for the constant pumper and heavy breathing... I guess for it's application it's ok, but for me, I really like the vox feature even if it does take a little oomph to get it "hot."

I realize it's not going to be set and forget... but when Jules and I were out testing, we set it for our liking and we didn't mess with it much at all, we didn't have to constantly adjust, it worked in most all of the environments we put it through. We have very similar volume needs so I was testing to see if I needed a headset with it's own to compensate... and it turns out we're good, at least at this juncture.

I realize that the more I use it we will find additional limitations, but I'm pretty used to using intercoms in all sorts of aircraft (most of my experience) and in a fair cross section of race/prerunners in all sorts of environments... the absolute worst is in the class one I'm helping with... but that's a completely different setup!

[BajaF250]

Haven't posted here in a long time... so I'll just drop a couple of pics for fun... getting ready for the 2013 BajaHID Excursion run up the Mojave Road (we hope! )