Manx Buggy 500h.p. LS3

[philofab]

Only big in the overhead cam. 440 hundred pounds is a featherweight engine. I do not want to take anything away from the LS, it is a good, strong, light engine. It has to be, it is a small block ford copy. It is the current flavor of the month. If you want to make your LS fast, you can always bolt some Cleveland heads on it since the decks, the bore alignment, and the head bolt patterns are the same.

The factory GM truck heads outflow a 2V Cleavland head. Cleveland heads are heavy steel, unlike the GM heads. The 4V heads does flow more than a standard truck head. You will spend $1200-$1600 finding a decent set and have them machined/rebuilt.

Here are some more comparisons:
------------------ LS3 ------------ 5.0 Ford Mod

Weight ----------- 430# --------------------- 440#
Size -------------- Small ---------------------- Big
HP --------------- ~425 ---------------------- ~412
Cost ------------- $6200 --------------------- $6500


On paper they are close. Here is where the difference is: I can buy a 5.3 truck motor for $400, spend $250 on ECU and Harness, $250 on a LS1 intake, $400 on a good cam, Headers for $300, and make 400HP for $1600. Can I pick up a used Coyote or mod motor and do that? No.

[johncharlesb]

Only big in the overhead cam. 440 hundred pounds is a featherweight engine. I do not want to take anything away from the LS, it is a good, strong, light engine. It has to be, it is a small block ford copy. It is the current flavor of the month. If you want to make your LS fast, you can always bolt some Cleveland heads on it since the decks, the bore alignment, and the head bolt patterns are the same.

The factory GM truck heads outflow a 2V Cleavland head. Cleveland heads are heavy steel, unlike the GM heads. The 4V heads does flow more than a standard truck head. You will spend $1200-$1600 finding a decent set and have them machined/rebuilt.

Here are some more comparisons:
------------------ LS3 ------------ 5.0 Ford Mod

Weight ----------- 430# --------------------- 440#
Size -------------- Small ---------------------- Big
HP --------------- ~425 ---------------------- ~412
Cost ------------- $6200 --------------------- $6500


On paper they are close. Here is where the difference is: I can buy a 5.3 truck motor for $400, spend $250 on ECU and Harness, $250 on a LS1 intake, $400 on a good cam, Headers for $300, and make 400HP for $1600. Can I pick up a used Coyote or mod motor and do that? No.

Of course, you are correct. I was just pointing out some interesting similarities and differences between the two and throwing in some reality on the LS love fest. Any engine is only so big and will spin only so fast, there is no "magic" going on in a LS engine. The same money could build a 351w and get the same power; and it will bolt right up.

BTW, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has made a GM/Cleveland hybrid, but there has been some Windsor/GM head combos put together. That comment was tongue in cheek to point out how close the small block Fords and the modern GMs are. It is interesting to see the sixties tech hold up though.

[philofab]

The only magic in the LS is they're everywhere and the 15 degree heads.

And I don't agree on the some money building a Windsor. The AFR aluminum heads I want for my Bronco cost the same as the whole 5.3 truck motor will cost me.

[johncharlesb]

The only magic in the LS is they're everywhere and the 15 degree heads.

And I don't agree on the some money building a Windsor. The AFR aluminum heads I want for my Bronco cost the same as the whole 5.3 truck motor will cost me.

You make valid points about prevalence and costs.

C90E heads would work. Here is a set local to me for $350.
http://centralmich.craigslist.org/pts/2886403931.html
Here is a built set local to you for $500.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/pts/2882898498.html

Extensive list of Ford heads and flow/power numbers. There are factory head 302s and 351Ws on the list. The Cleveland numbers are pretty impressive too.
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Ford

There is a GM head section, and they do have some really good numbers.

[AussieRod]

The only magic in the LS is they're everywhere

So are rats and mosquitos, but we still dont want them.

[Agui-E7TE]

There's no doubt in my mind that an LS would be super cool in a Bronco. It would have 300 HP easily and get you going way faster than a stock 351W. What I really like is that an LS in a Bronco would mean I could probably get 18 mpg easily and that would make it a hell of a lot more fun to drive around town and take long trips in it. Maybe there's an LS in the future for my '79 Bronco..

[ChaseTruck754]

The same money could build a 351w and get the same power; and it will bolt right up.

Philoe is already doing well rebutting this one, but I will add I've been looking more at the LS recently as I would have more $$ in machine work to do my 393 than I can get a decent 5.3L built for.

Price points just aren't the same as you can get Chevy parts cheaply at any neighborhood supermarket pretty much.

I also like the fact that it seems you can get much better gas mileage out of the LS series for some reason. I'll take 18 or so vs. 12 or so any day. Granted there are a lot of factors that go into making those #'s, but from the LS, LT, LQ, etc. owners I've talked with - they get much better mileage than the 351w owners I've talked to.

Since much of my stuff will be custom anyways it takes just as much effort to make motor & trans mounts for an LS as it does for a 351w. Philo should be proving this & more on his '70's ford build soon....

[johncharlesb]

The same money could build a 351w and get the same power; and it will bolt right up.

Philoe is already doing well rebutting this one, but I will add I've been looking more at the LS recently as I would have more $$ in machine work to do my 393 than I can get a decent 5.3L built for.

Price points just aren't the same as you can get Chevy parts cheaply at any neighborhood supermarket pretty much.

I also like the fact that it seems you can get much better gas mileage out of the LS series for some reason. I'll take 18 or so vs. 12 or so any day. Granted there are a lot of factors that go into making those #'s, but from the LS, LT, LQ, etc. owners I've talked with - they get much better mileage than the 351w owners I've talked to.

Since much of my stuff will be custom anyways it takes just as much effort to make motor & trans mounts for an LS as it does for a 351w. Philo should be proving this & more on his '70's ford build soon....

Philo makes valid points about the LS engine. He is definitely knowledgable and has my respect. The LS engine is a very good engine. I do not want to take anything away from it. Philo's trucks are something that I follow and learn from.

In the garage is a 300hp sohc motor that gets 25mpg and a 350hp 4v Cleveland that I have $900 into. Others results may vary. I personally have not found it difficult to make cheap power in a Ford V8.

[BDKW1]

Somebody just needs to make a Ford engine cover for the LS motors. Seems to work for AGM...........