Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

[cs_drums]

JD fab has a kit. Not on there site but you can call them.

[FUFIMI]

I think kelfab has a kit also

[Travisfab]

Im going to run the setup from Kel Fab. I like the in board/outboard heim setup he has going off the pitman

[Rmc]

If you can make it make it, if not buy it I'd also suggest kelfab cause he's a cool guy and he does great work.
If you plan to make it yourself I'd suggest at least having a basic guide line which I noticed no one has given in the previous comments.
Rules: pitman arm radius length and range of motion must be mirrored by the swing.

If you place the ideler arm link mount 1.5 inches from the pitman arm end the swing must have the same distance value. The goal here is to create a swing ( ideler arm)and a shaft linking the both ( pitman arm and swing) that as closely as possibly mirrors what motion is generated by the steering box and the total travel of this motion. To achieve this the ideler bolt hole radius length( attachment point for ideler shaft) and pitman arm end bolt hole length ( through bolt for hiem attachment of the tierod) should be identical in length dimentions.

Rule 2: tie rod length approximation.
Because the beam and radius arm move in unison it's basically like a single lower control arm with one single radius value. To get a close approximation of length take a piece of string and tape it or tie it across the beam pivot bolt to the radius arm bolt attach both points string taught, devide by 2 and mark center.
The distance from this mark to the beam end represents the beam/radius arm radius value. This number will be very close to the needed tierod length. Remember to keep in mind packaging (packaging=placement of all needed components)
Will determine location of mounting swing, ideler shaft ect. This radius value would be increased or decreased by knuckle ear type,length, swing location ect but it will at least put you in the ballpark of the correct tierod radius value.
So for double swings its the same thing but you can get much closer to the needed tierod radius value because you can closer mirror the beam radius and have much more freedom in packaging .

Hope it helps, good luck to all who can use these guidelines.

[Travisfab]

Good info!

[Seabass]

Now is the time to decide if your going to run hydro assist in the future as well.

[Tchajagos]

I've seen guys mock it up using PVC pipe to keep mistakes from costing $$$$$

[drewbee88]

So since i haven't had time to physically work on bronco lately. i have been thinking ahead to my steering. here is what i have been thinking for steering. So everything i have read about steering is you want your pivot point on your steering the same as your beam and or a-arm. so with that in mind and not trying to get too complicated i thought this up. its still a single swinger but moving the passenger tie rod down inline with its pivot. i think the only downfall to this would be the stress put on swinger tube, which i have been thinking about running a thick wall square tube instead of round for the swinger cross piece as i believe it would hold up stronger to the liner load and be less prone to bending. Am i crazy?

[baja-chris]

Think of the ttb (or i-beams) as a single giant a-arm. Draw a line through the radius arm pivot and the beam pivot and the assembly swings about that line.
Now if you can locate your tie rod end on that line then it should cycle without bump steer (as long as your wheels are pointing straight ahead).
Once you turn, the tie rod end moves off that line. It's a 3-dimensional problem, need to consider front/rear, side/side, up/down for the optimal location.

Trying to line up (or locate) the tie rod from only the front view will not really get the optimal location.

[drewbee88]

Think of the ttb (or i-beams) as a single giant a-arm. Draw a line through the radius arm pivot and the beam pivot and the assembly swings about that line.
Now if you can locate your tie rod end on that line then it should cycle without bump steer (as long as your wheels are pointing straight ahead).
Once you turn, the tie rod end moves off that line. It's a 3-dimensional problem, need to consider front/rear, side/side, up/down for the optimal location.

Trying to line up (or locate) the tie rod from only the front view will not really get the optimal location.

Ok cool that makes sense now, i was not 100% sure the right way of setting it up, i will now draw a line between the radius arm mounting points, my radius arms are longer than most so it should help the bump steer out. thanks for the information Chris, i appreciate it!

[Rmc]

Think of the ttb (or i-beams) as a single giant a-arm. Draw a line through the radius arm pivot and the beam pivot and the assembly swings about that line.
Now if you can locate your tie rod end on that line then it should cycle without bump steer (as long as your wheels are pointing straight ahead).
Once you turn, the tie rod end moves off that line. It's a 3-dimensional problem, need to consider front/rear, side/side, up/down for the optimal location.

Trying to line up (or locate) the tie rod from only the front view will not really get the optimal location.

Ok cool that makes sense now, i was not 100% sure the right way of setting it up, i will now draw a line between the radius arm mounting points, my radius arms are longer than most so it should help the bump steer out. thanks for the information Chris, i appreciate it!

Radius arm length has nothing to do with bump steer prevention or solution. Packaging and how close the 2 radius's are to eachother in length ( tierod radius and beam radius)and how you arrange 2 like radius's moving in unparrallel planes is the deciding factor to bump steer or the lack there of. Height of tierod pivot to beam pivot is also a contributing factor to this equation also.
Mock up repeatedly and cycle cycle cycle. Remember also unequal length beams means unequal length tierods so a true solution is not a kit you can buy or a simple answer to a question. It's many issues simultaneously working within a of set parameters. There's basically 3 things that make or break this set up. 1st: plane heights relationships to one another between the beam pivots, tierod pivots, and relationship the swing and pitman imposes on the tierod radius length while turning, 2nd: how close you can make the radius's. this means how close to exactly equal each tierod can be made to the beam/radius arm it's being used with. Agian think of each side of the truck as a seperate and independant set of numbers that act completely independant from the opposing side, after all the only common bond between each series of math problems is the bar that links the swing to the pitman arm. 3rd: I garanty there are problems with anyone's math. This translates to 2 of the biggest issues " parameters" means usable range... Every set up has different shocks, beams, tierods ect. Unless its brand specific variations exsist no mater what. 2 of the largest hurdles are the frame rails them selves BUT this only becomes an issue if you exceed the parameters ( usable range) before radius intersect or bump steer effect. Clearly dudes either don't know how to word it, dont understand it or are not divulging all information taken into consideration in this set up. Measure it- cycle it - and find the places where radius intersections occur. The usable range has to be set up within the boundaries of these locations.

[Rmc]

Once you've built one and measured the effects each change makes you will completely understand this system.

[drewbee88]

Think of the ttb (or i-beams) as a single giant a-arm. Draw a line through the radius arm pivot and the beam pivot and the assembly swings about that line.
Now if you can locate your tie rod end on that line then it should cycle without bump steer (as long as your wheels are pointing straight ahead).
Once you turn, the tie rod end moves off that line. It's a 3-dimensional problem, need to consider front/rear, side/side, up/down for the optimal location.

Trying to line up (or locate) the tie rod from only the front view will not really get the optimal location.

Ok cool that makes sense now, i was not 100% sure the right way of setting it up, i will now draw a line between the radius arm mounting points, my radius arms are longer than most so it should help the bump steer out. thanks for the information Chris, i appreciate it!

Radius arm length has nothing to do with bump steer prevention or solution. Packaging and how close the 2 radius's are to eachother in length ( tierod radius and beam radius)and how you arrange 2 like radius's moving in unparrallel planes is the deciding factor to bump steer or the lack there of. Height of tierod pivot to beam pivot is also a contributing factor to this equation also.
Mock up repeatedly and cycle cycle cycle. Remember also unequal length beams means unequal length tierods so a true solution is not a kit you can buy or a simple answer to a question. It's many issues simultaneously working within a of set parameters. There's basically 3 things that make or break this set up. 1st: plane heights relationships to one another between the beam pivots, tierod pivots, and relationship the swing and pitman imposes on the tierod radius length while turning, 2nd: how close you can make the radius's. this means how close to exactly equal each tierod can be made to the beam/radius arm it's being used with. Agian think of each side of the truck as a seperate and independant set of numbers that act completely independant from the opposing side, after all the only common bond between each series of math problems is the bar that links the swing to the pitman arm. 3rd: I garanty there are problems with anyone's math. This translates to 2 of the biggest issues " parameters" means usable range... Every set up has different shocks, beams, tierods ect. Unless its brand specific variations exsist no mater what. 2 of the largest hurdles are the frame rails them selves BUT this only becomes an issue if you exceed the parameters ( usable range) before radius intersect or bump steer effect. Clearly dudes either don't know how to word it, dont understand it or are not divulging all information taken into consideration in this set up. Measure it- cycle it - and find the places where radius intersections occur. The usable range has to be set up within the boundaries of these locations.

For sure, but the length of radius arm has to change the arc curve. It may not be much but it has to change the arc due to changing the pivot points no? either way i am going to build it cycle it and build it again till i am happy with it. Isnt the TTB designed to be the same arc curve even though the beams are unequal?

[baja-chris]

Once you've built one and measured the effects each change makes you will completely understand this system.

which is why i made the suggestion i did. i did the layout on our race bronco using this method and have no more than 1/4" bump steer over 20" travel most of it at full droop.
1/8" over normal range (ride plus or minus 6"). but the layout also included dual swingers and relocated steering box. full custom layout.

[Rmc]

My point is Chris tell the dude what he needs to know don't give him just enough of a tidbit to confuse him. Explain the goals, the expected problems and there solutions. I only wish the Internet could have saved me the time involved it took me. I swear I wished someone gave me some insight instead of figuring stuff out the hard way. Save the guy a head ache I know you know how save him a week of frustration. You may have a completely different understanding on this topic than I do which is cool cause that's why we're all here to swap info, deals ect. Help a brother grasp an understanding of the consepts not an answer to question. If you teach him to fish his understanding may enlighten your own.

[drewbee88]

My point is Chris tell the dude what he needs to know don't give him just enough of a tidbit to confuse him. Explain the goals, the expected problems and there solutions. I only wish the Internet could have saved me the time involved it took me. I swear I wished someone gave me some insight instead of figuring stuff out the hard way. Save the guy a head ache I know you know how save him a week of frustration. You may have a completely different understanding on this topic than I do which is cool cause that's why we're all here to swap info, deals ect. Help a brother grasp an understanding of the consepts not an answer to question. If you teach him to fish his understanding may enlighten your own.

Once you've built one and measured the effects each change makes you will completely understand this system.

which is why i made the suggestion i did. i did the layout on our race bronco using this method and have no more than 1/4" bump steer over 20" travel most of it at full droop.
1/8" over normal range (ride plus or minus 6"). but the layout also included dual swingers and relocated steering box. full custom layout.

I appreciate the help. This is my first encounter with beams. I've done tons of research and just had some questions. Eliminating bump steer completely is out of the question I know. I just want to do the beast I can with whatever information I can gather. Everyone here has been very informative. I really think I would not of been able to tackle my beams without hours of reading through threads here.

[VintageIronFab]

I would kind of argue to some degree that being that the frame is all equal, steering box placement being the same. the beam location is the same and the point where the tie rods connect at the knuckles being the same. There is a reason why there are a couple different builders of the swinger kits- reason being these are production vehicles. My thinking is that if you have the correct distances on the pivot separation and the same on the pitman arm-- what really is there to figure out? When the tires are centered and the steering box is centered I really dont see what more is needed? Now a dual swinger and equal length beams puts a completely different wrinkle to everything.

[Rmc]

First off you right and wrong... What this means is yes your right a production vehicle has standard components but when you delve into the realm of swing set steering your forgetting 2 very important things. 1st if someone's adding custom steering its nearly garanteed it's going to be ran with a custom suspension set up. This means usable travel range becomes an unknown factor in the equation. Will any old swings get you close? Yes I say but agian what do you want? Zero bump steer or as close to as possible? If so then custom placed components will enhance the desired outcome of as little bump steer as possible.
2nd thing is reguardless of perfect component placement for production or otherwise the reality is the pivot point of the tierods is not in the same plane vertically as the beam pivot centerline so this will garanty a limiting factor of usable range so back to the 1st point. Custom placed components will lessen the effects of the geometric cluster that I beam steering is. The set up needs to incorporate as little geometric arc intersections as possible. Meaning if you can get the pitman arm to a height the beam pivot is it gets a little better this of course is in a perfect tierod senerio. At the end of the day though when the wheels are turned the radius lengths stay the same but the agian no longer share a similar center of arc rotation.
I garanty there is no such thing as a perfect set up but you can get close. Like in Chris's case or on my old trucks case. I was playing with 28" of travel on double swings with 1/4 inch bump. Even if you get bump at the farthest ends of the travel its cool as long as its not a slack condion.

[Rmc]

Maybe these chicken scratchings will help clarify.

[ChaseTruck754]

Will any old swings get you close? Yes I say but agian what do you want? Zero bump steer or as close to as possible? If so then custom placed components will enhance the desired outcome of as little bump steer as possible.

This is why mixing & matching components can backfire at times. If you get beams & radius arms from one guy/place, it's good to get steering from the same place if you aren't going to go through the trouble of making your own.
This is because when builders mock up & design their swingers, etc. they are doing it with their beams & radius arms, so that is what the steering is designed to work with.

Swingers from another vendor may be close & will work (maybe even better than stock), but components that are built around each other & designed to work together function the best together & get you the best results.