Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

[rdcjuanb]

Super hard to explain. feels almost like its oversteering and wants to buckle the wheel under it. I will have to correct(straighten the wheel) and recommit. Super weird.

[SteveG]

Anyone have issues turning right? Getting on the freeway at speed feels super sketchy. It felt similar with extended stock steering and now with the single pivot crossover steering. Buddy has a similar issue and he is running dual swinger steering.

It’s either geometry issues (Ackerman might be off) or alignment. Do you have an alignment printout?

[Tchajagos]

Might be a caster issue if it doesn’t want to return to center.

[sydude]

Ok, kids... I've had this idea bangin around in my head for a while as a completely new and different steering system. Full hydraulic ram steering, with equal length steering rods actuated by the double ended ram. MUCH simpler than all of the swinger setups. What y'all think?

IMG_6247.png (715.04 KiB) Viewed 14979 times

[Becks_Bronco]

Ok, kids... I've had this idea bangin around in my head for a while as a completely new and different steering system. Full hydraulic ram steering, with equal length steering rods actuated by the double ended ram. MUCH simpler than all of the swinger setups. What y'all think?

IMG_6247.png

essentially that's what dual swing systems do. And you'd almost need them in order to offset and actuate the steering arms.

[UncleBud]

This may sound like a stupid idea but i'm curious if anyone has tried to put gm 1 ton tres on the knuckle side of a cross over steering setup. I'm building a ttb early bronco and live in a very wet humid area. My thoughts is that i could at-least keep the joints that'll catch the most gunk serviceable.

[UncleBud]

Oddly enough, I have been looking for a steering box for another project, Needs to be outside the frame mount forward swing. That looks like exactly what I need. Probably should stick with local stuff though..........

look up 4x4x2 box. its a converted f150 box i believe. i have one on my early bronco and its setup the way your wanting.

[SteveG]

This may sound like a stupid idea but i'm curious if anyone has tried to put gm 1 ton tres on the knuckle side of a cross over steering setup. I'm building a ttb early bronco and live in a very wet humid area. My thoughts is that i could at-least keep the joints that'll catch the most gunk serviceable.

I’ve always wanted to build a steering system with stock tie-rod ends. Not being able to easily adjust toe sucks. I was stoked to see this on Sandy Cone’s Bronco. It was a great setup and he hasn’t had one issue with it.

[ntsqd]

You'll have to pardon me, I'm working my way thru this thread.

How do you properly cut a bolt to length? Stupid question but want to see some different methods.

With a lathe, if you want to do a nice job.

How do you hold it? Put a nut on it and hold the head and the nut in the chuck?

Do you use a parting tool, then face it, then chamfer it? Do you use coolant or plunge in with parting tool hot? I would buy aircraft hardware if I was going to take the time to do that. Sounds nice but thats the first I have heard of somebody doing it that way.

Cold saw and burr king is quick and functional.

I usually cut with a band-saw, square the end and chamfer it on a lathe - the nut trick works just OK in a 3 jaw chuck unless you happen to have an anti-backlash nut to use. Y'all just have those laying about everywhere, right?
If you are anal or it truly matters then the collet is the best way to go. I learned the hard way to not chamfer at the angle of the threads, chamfer at 45°or you'll play hell getting the burr out of the threads.
I'm often tempted to leave enough threads that I can cross-drill it at the end of the threads. Some time ago I learned the value of a simple loop of safety wire twisted per normal in the end of bolt (actually VW Link Pins). Makes it really, really hard for the nut to escape should it come loose. Belt and suspenders......

Well now I have the baja-Chris steering setup after wearing out the ambulance setup.
You know what - I can not tell the difference.
I never noticed bump steer. But I sure noticed loose parts.

If you guys can tell you have bump steer then you should have driven my truck with the ambulance setup.

Bottom line you can spend tons of dollars to emulate a race truck , but adds no value for a prerunner. What adds value is heims and fat 4130 steering tubes. And if you do that then you might as well change the links to improve a percieved attempt to make it like a race truck.

Glen has done 3 Broncos so far see the pics. Mine, Chris, & Kupec's
It sure is not perfect due to the main link that tries to droop down (see the knife edge gusset in the pic). So far we are using shock rubbers to hold it up. It does not affect the approach angle if held up. The support has to be pliable due to the angles the hiems make during articulation and turning. Any way its expensive and super strong. The passenger pivot is custom machined from a steering box part and uses lubed polly instead of a hard bearing.
Also note the ram assist whihc required a rebuilt box with ports. Found a c racke shaft and got that replaced at the same time.
So what the 3 Broncos got was a reduced cost crossover steering. No where as good as the Baja-Chris C3 build on another thread.
PaulW

PaulW, you are the first I have seen to have a swinger that FOLLOWS the pitman arm, rather than swinging at 90 degrees to it. I like it! If I were to do this type of steering, thats how I would do it.

I have been pondering doing it this way. The L vs. R steering response of my truck is enough different that it takes some getting used to. I'd like it to be the same in either direction. My thot was to get another pitman arm and pitman shaft. Mount them sort of like they're a RHD steering box. My departure from the norm is that I do not want SRE's in what is mostly a street driven truck.

....
That brings me to a question in my own mind... Accerman is applied by entire systems inward or outward relationship to the beam ends? I never put that much thought into it because the toe was my enemy and it was only intended for dirt. Anyone know?

The way that Ackerman is defined in every ref book that I own makes no mention of the linkage geometry. It is only concerned with where the hole in the steering arm is relative to where the steering axis at the elevation of that steering joint is and where the rear axle CL is. 100% Ackerman is defined as a line drawn from either the steering joint or the steering axis (which ever is leading) thru the other and extended back to meet the rear axle CL at the chassis CL. If the intersection with the chassis CL occurs ahead of the rear axle CL then the Ackerman is referred to as being XX% ACkerman; where the intersection point distance from the front axle CL is whatever percentage of the wheel base length. For front steer systems this means that the hole in the steering arm needs to be outboard of the steering axis. Usually it runs into the wheel before it can get to where it really needs to be.
Example: Chassis CL intersection occurs 50" to the rear of the front axle CL of a 100" WB vehicle. That would be 50% Ackerman. Had it occurred at 75" back it would be 75% Ackerman.
There is no doubt that the linkage geometry plays a role in steering angle vs. steering input, but Ackerman is not concerned with that. Ackerman is only concerned with insuring that both front wheels are steered to an angle where neither will scrub in a turn, and it is based on the partly erroneous assumption that the rear axle CL will always point to the center of the radius of the turn being navigated.

This may sound like a stupid idea but i'm curious if anyone has tried to put gm 1 ton tres on the knuckle side of a cross over steering setup. I'm building a ttb early bronco and live in a very wet humid area. My thoughts is that i could at-least keep the joints that'll catch the most gunk serviceable.

I’ve always wanted to build a steering system with stock tie-rod ends. Not being able to easily adjust toe sucks. I was stoked to see this on Sandy Cone’s Bronco. It was a great setup and he hasn’t had one issue with it.

My thinking is to combine a pitman arm type single swing steering system with TRE's for all of the joints. Could be a pair of Ambulance long side tie rod assemblies with some sort of TRE based drag link, or it could all be 1 ton GM TRE based. Going TRE over SRE complicates things a little, but not terribly. The tapered reamers that TRE's need aren't hard to find or operate. I LIKE being able to flush any grit out of them with a grease gun. Yeah, they are single shear. I think too many folks get too wrapped around the axle about that. Double shear done correctly does NOT flex or bend the tab and is not hard to assemble. Almost no one does it that way. Ever notice that the first place to crack are the welds or bends in a flying 'double shear' tab? That bending/assembling stress is what started that.
This is how it is done correctly:

The "french blue" sleave is a sliding locational fit in the teal colored boss. I've only ever seen it done this way on purpose built sports racers, usually English and built by the likes of Lola, Lotus, etc. But, I'm digressing.....

The tapered pin and the design of TRE itself makes double shear unnecessary. Anyway, I'm tentatively thinking that I'd put the tie rods in the existing pitman arm holes, and then add a second hole to each by welding (& strapping & gusseting & etc.) a boss to the forward end of each pitman arm. So effectively a right side tie rod for both sides. A common trick in road racing is to dump the rolled sheet metal adjusters and replace them with LH & RH threaded tube and use jamn nuts. Not sure such a thing exists (yet), but it shouldn't be too hard to make 3 of them. I'm very early in thinking this thru, could easily be something I've not thot of or over-looked.

[UncleBud]

You'll have to pardon me, I'm working my way thru this thread.

With a lathe, if you want to do a nice job.

How do you hold it? Put a nut on it and hold the head and the nut in the chuck?

Do you use a parting tool, then face it, then chamfer it? Do you use coolant or plunge in with parting tool hot? I would buy aircraft hardware if I was going to take the time to do that. Sounds nice but thats the first I have heard of somebody doing it that way.

Cold saw and burr king is quick and functional.

I usually cut with a band-saw, square the end and chamfer it on a lathe - the nut trick works just OK in a 3 jaw chuck unless you happen to have an anti-backlash nut to use. Y'all just have those laying about everywhere, right?
If you are anal or it truly matters then the collet is the best way to go. I learned the hard way to not chamfer at the angle of the threads, chamfer at 45°or you'll play hell getting the burr out of the threads.
I'm often tempted to leave enough threads that I can cross-drill it at the end of the threads. Some time ago I learned the value of a simple loop of safety wire twisted per normal in the end of bolt (actually VW Link Pins). Makes it really, really hard for the nut to escape should it come loose. Belt and suspenders......

Well now I have the baja-Chris steering setup after wearing out the ambulance setup.
You know what - I can not tell the difference.
I never noticed bump steer. But I sure noticed loose parts.

If you guys can tell you have bump steer then you should have driven my truck with the ambulance setup.

Bottom line you can spend tons of dollars to emulate a race truck , but adds no value for a prerunner. What adds value is heims and fat 4130 steering tubes. And if you do that then you might as well change the links to improve a percieved attempt to make it like a race truck.

Glen has done 3 Broncos so far see the pics. Mine, Chris, & Kupec's
It sure is not perfect due to the main link that tries to droop down (see the knife edge gusset in the pic). So far we are using shock rubbers to hold it up. It does not affect the approach angle if held up. The support has to be pliable due to the angles the hiems make during articulation and turning. Any way its expensive and super strong. The passenger pivot is custom machined from a steering box part and uses lubed polly instead of a hard bearing.
Also note the ram assist whihc required a rebuilt box with ports. Found a c racke shaft and got that replaced at the same time.
So what the 3 Broncos got was a reduced cost crossover steering. No where as good as the Baja-Chris C3 build on another thread.
PaulW

PaulW, you are the first I have seen to have a swinger that FOLLOWS the pitman arm, rather than swinging at 90 degrees to it. I like it! If I were to do this type of steering, thats how I would do it.

I have been pondering doing it this way. The L vs. R steering response of my truck is enough different that it takes some getting used to. I'd like it to be the same in either direction. My thot was to get another pitman arm and pitman shaft. Mount them sort of like they're a RHD steering box. My departure from the norm is that I do not want SRE's in what is mostly a street driven truck.

....
That brings me to a question in my own mind... Accerman is applied by entire systems inward or outward relationship to the beam ends? I never put that much thought into it because the toe was my enemy and it was only intended for dirt. Anyone know?

The way that Ackerman is defined in every ref book that I own makes no mention of the linkage geometry. It is only concerned with where the hole in the steering arm is relative to where the steering axis at the elevation of that steering joint is and where the rear axle CL is. 100% Ackerman is defined as a line drawn from either the steering joint or the steering axis (which ever is leading) thru the other and extended back to meet the rear axle CL at the chassis CL. If the intersection with the chassis CL occurs ahead of the rear axle CL then the Ackerman is referred to as being XX% ACkerman; where the intersection point distance from the front axle CL is whatever percentage of the wheel base length. For front steer systems this means that the hole in the steering arm needs to be outboard of the steering axis. Usually it runs into the wheel before it can get to where it really needs to be.
Example: Chassis CL intersection occurs 50" to the rear of the front axle CL of a 100" WB vehicle. That would be 50% Ackerman. Had it occurred at 75" back it would be 75% Ackerman.
There is no doubt that the linkage geometry plays a role in steering angle vs. steering input, but Ackerman is not concerned with that. Ackerman is only concerned with insuring that both front wheels are steered to an angle where neither will scrub in a turn, and it is based on the partly erroneous assumption that the rear axle CL will always point to the center of the radius of the turn being navigated.

This may sound like a stupid idea but i'm curious if anyone has tried to put gm 1 ton tres on the knuckle side of a cross over steering setup. I'm building a ttb early bronco and live in a very wet humid area. My thoughts is that i could at-least keep the joints that'll catch the most gunk serviceable.

I’ve always wanted to build a steering system with stock tie-rod ends. Not being able to easily adjust toe sucks. I was stoked to see this on Sandy Cone’s Bronco. It was a great setup and he hasn’t had one issue with it.

My thinking is to combine a pitman arm type single swing steering system with TRE's for all of the joints. Could be a pair of Ambulance long side tie rod assemblies with some sort of TRE based drag link, or it could all be 1 ton GM TRE based. Going TRE over SRE complicates things a little, but not terribly. The tapered reamers that TRE's need aren't hard to find or operate. I LIKE being able to flush any grit out of them with a grease gun. Yeah, they are single shear. I think too many folks get too wrapped around the axle about that. Double shear done correctly does NOT flex or bend the tab and is not hard to assemble. Almost no one does it that way. Ever notice that the first place to crack are the welds or bends in a flying 'double shear' tab? That bending/assembling stress is what started that.
This is how it is done correctly:

The "french blue" sleave is a sliding locational fit in the teal colored boss. I've only ever seen it done this way on purpose built sports racers, usually English and built by the likes of Lola, Lotus, etc. But, I'm digressing.....

The tapered pin and the design of TRE itself makes double shear unnecessary. Anyway, I'm tentatively thinking that I'd put the tie rods in the existing pitman arm holes, and then add a second hole to each by welding (& strapping & gusseting & etc.) a boss to the forward end of each pitman arm. So effectively a right side tie rod for both sides. A common trick in road racing is to dump the rolled sheet metal adjusters and replace them with LH & RH threaded tube and use jamn nuts. Not sure such a thing exists (yet), but it shouldn't be too hard to make 3 of them. I'm very early in thinking this thru, could easily be something I've not thot of or over-looked.

I've been thinking about making a swinger out of say 3/4" plate and drilling and tapering it for a tre. I remember when i Drilled out my old solid axle knuckles for heims it didnt seam like the metal was very hard. setting up the pitman arm to accept 2 tres would probably be the most difficult part of that.

[UncleBud]

I just thought about something. the passenger side tie rod end on an 05+ super duty is meant to go through the knuckle and the drag link slips through the top and bolts down. i wonder if that could work on a pitman arm to make a single swing setup.

[ntsqd]

Can buy both splined rounds and flat plate pitman arms. I know that Sky Mfg does this for yota stuff, don't know (yet) who offers it for Fords. I don't see adding a second tapered hole to a pitman arm as all that difficult. It is work, but the difficulty as fab projects go, is low. Seems like 100 years ago I built this steering arm to convert to cross-over on my old '84 yota. Built it in Art Design class and submitted it as one of the required sculpture projects. Bolted it to a base and called it "Steering Part":


You're talking about this:


Plus this:


Interesting idea, I've not enough experience (yet) with these systems to know if it could work.

[UncleBud]

Can buy both splined rounds and flat plate pitman arms. I know that Sky Mfg does this for yota stuff, don't know (yet) who offers it for Fords. I don't see adding a second tapered hole to a pitman arm as all that difficult. It is work, but the difficulty as fab projects go, is low. Seems like 100 years ago I built this steering arm to convert to cross-over on my old '84 yota. Built it in Art Design class and submitted it as one of the required sculpture projects. Bolted it to a base and called it "Steering Part":


You're talking about this:


Plus this:


Interesting idea, I've not enough experience (yet) with these systems to know if it could work.

yup thats the part. im going to have to look through my parts pile and see if i have my old ones from when i had my super duty. from what i rember the knuckle they inserted into was really thick.

[mobil1syn]

Can buy both splined rounds and flat plate pitman arms. I know that Sky Mfg does this for yota stuff, don't know (yet) who offers it for Fords. I don't see adding a second tapered hole to a pitman arm as all that difficult. It is work, but the difficulty as fab projects go, is low. Seems like 100 years ago I built this steering arm to convert to cross-over on my old '84 yota. Built it in Art Design class and submitted it as one of the required sculpture projects. Bolted it to a base and called it "Steering Part":

ooh the old double stack stock arms trick, been a minute since ive seen a picture like that with crossover being as available as it is.

[ntsqd]

Truck sat too low, on purpose, for the typical high steer to fit and not force moving the bump-stops down to keep the tie rod from dinging the oil pan. As it was it dinged the pan slightly in 2007 or so when our 7S truck rolled under the power-lines south-east of Inner Hodge and I was on a Mission to find them.

[ntsqd]

At your front door in 2 days

Just looked this p/n up on amazon. "Usually ships within 1 to 2 months. " Quite a difference 6 years makes.

[RyanDS650X]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C57UPQ/re ... UTF8&psc=1

I just re did all my steering last month and got everything in 2 days.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[ntsqd]

Weird, same p/n,I must have gotten a different seller since my search originated from outside of amazon

[Wrightracing.net]

Has anyone put in a High steer type double sheer setup on the Dana 44 TTB knuckles. My though is to push out the tie rod, so it does not need to be bent. Also, it might give more leverage turning the knuckle.

What are your thoughts.


David

[ntsqd]

Doing so will slow down the steering. Can speed it up at the pitman arm, but then the added leverage goes away.

The real issue for me would be what it does for the Ackerman? OEM is not terribly great and I'm guessing that Ackerman isn't important to those who make those parts, so it probably suffers even more.