Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

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Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by sydude »

After getting my truck aligned, I've noticed how bad the bump steer issue is on my bronco, and have been thinking about how it can be fixed. I've looked around, but there are no comprehensive discussions on steering systems in regards to go fast stuff, so I figured I'd start one. I currently have a Superunner system, which I installed when I bent the hell out of my stock steering system six years ago when I slammed into a rock. I was told it was much better and stronger, but I'm not convinced that it's an ideal system. From what I gather, an equal length crossover steering system is ideal, but is either very expensive or requires custom fabrication.

I would love to get your collective wisdom on these, and how best to complete a crossover system if that is what's desired.

Here's what I know so far about the different systems:

Stock

Pros:
Free & cheap to replace
Easy to repair / change rod ends & ball-joints

Cons:
The driver's side steering rod is much shorter than it's corresponding TTB arm, creating severe bump steer at that wheel. The passenger side is equal or nearly equal, so that one works well.
Weak, bends easily

Superunner by Superlift - http://www.superlift.com/accessories/superunner.asp
Pros:
Strong in construction
Steering rods are equal in both sides, creating equal steering geometry at both wheels

Cons:
The steering rods are quite a bit shorter than the TTB arms, so there is bump steer at BOTH wheels
The ball joints on the rod ends wear out relatively quickly, and are not replaceable without significant work
Expensive

Crossover / Equal Length Steering
Pros:
Steering arms are equal in length and operate in parallel to their corresponding TTB arms, which allow for correct steering geometry and little to no bump steer.
Construction is as strong as you build it, with the benefit of using heim joints etc

Cons:
Custom fabbed only?
Expensive?
Single swing or Double swing?

Digging around, I found the following crossover systems:

Autofab, $2,500 complete. Description: "This is a good view of the equal length steering system. It consists of 3 separate tie rods made from 4130 chrome moly tubing and heim ends. One tie rod comes from the pitiman arm and drives a bell crank on the right side to operate the tie rod to the left wheel. The pitman arm drives the right wheel tie rod as well. By doing this we drastically reduce the toe change on the left side wheel caused by the stock steering. Autofab can do the steering for you as well please add $2500 and send us your knuckle ends for modifications necessary to work with heim joint ends. We will include the 3 tie rods, alloy heim ends and jam nuts, modified pitman arm, special bell crank pivot and mounting parts and rework on the knuckle ends for the heim joints". Link: http://autofab.com/extra_wide_mdl_44.htm

Giant has a "Single Swing Steering Arm" kit for $400 with bushings and mount, but no rods or heims. Description: "This swinger will help you get started on correcting the bump steer on your extended beam for TTB 4WD trucks. This Steering Swinger comes raw with out bushings or mounts to better help the Do It Yourselfer. Rods and hiems not offered thru Giant. Also available for 2WD's." Link: http://giantmotorsports.com/content/view/74/95/

I think Camburg makes a kit, but I can't find it on their website. Hopefully Scott can chime in on this.

In one of the links below, someone also mentions that Southwest Performance has a setup, but their site is offline.

Here are some other resources/discussions:

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60593
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38675
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21795

On a purely subjective level, my biggest question is how much better is a crossover steering system compared to stock and a superunner system, and Is that difference worth the extra cost. Anyone have any opinions on these or any additional resources please?

Thanks

Sy
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by SteveG »

After doing some work on a single-swinger system on a 4wd Ranger, my conclusion was that building a dual-swinger system just isn't worth the effort for all but the fastest trucks. The steering geometry for the right side is pretty damn good in stock form. The left side, of course, is far from ideal.

Even with the short tie rod on the left side, though, the TTB works well with stock steering. A single-swinger system is definitely an improvement. The question is do YOU need it?

How much better is a crossover steering system compared to stock and a superunner system? There is no comparison. The Superrunner system was designed for trucks with excessively large lifts, not for going-fast. The geometry sucks and without seeing your steering I'd be willing to bet the inner tie-rod pivots are not on the correct plane. Personally I would put yours back to stock with the appropriate dropped pitman arm and call it a day.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by philofab »

X2 on the super runner steering not being anywhere near ideal. I would run stock stuff over that.

On a different note un-equal length beam systems only need a single swinger, equal length systems need a crossover steering system. A crossover system is NOT needed on unequal length beams. You will feel the bump steer on paved roads way more than you will feel it off road.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by tcm glx »

SteveG wrote:After doing some work on a single-swinger system on a 4wd Ranger, my conclusion was that building a dual-swinger system just isn't worth the effort for all but the fastest trucks. The steering geometry for the right side is pretty damn good in stock form. The left side, of course, is far from ideal.

Even with the short tie rod on the left side, though, the TTB works well with stock steering. A single-swinger system is definitely an improvement, the question is do YOU need it.

How much better is a crossover steering system compared to stock and a superunner system? There is no comparison. The Superrunner system was designed for trucks with excessively large lifts, not for going-fast. The geometry sucks and without seeing your steering I'd be willing to bet the inner tie-rod pivots are not on the correct plane. Personally I would put yours back to stock with the appropriate dropped pitman arm and call it a day.

Talk to us about the Ambulance upgrade Steve!
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by SteveG »

tcm glx wrote:Talk to us about the Ambulance upgrade Steve!
Here you go... I'm also merging a thread Nick started a while back so we can keep all the steering info in one thread.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Nick »

Originally posted by PaulW

Lots of of questions on tie rods for the TTB. I have answered these questions before. So I guess its time for a stand alone thread.
====
The source of knowledge is the Ford parts manual at your nearby dealer.

For what we know about a fat Ford tie rod for the TTB from years ago I will repeat the story previously posted. See below.

Of course there are better ways that are stronger, steer better, and cost much more. When you get weary of buying new tie rod hardware then it would be time to move to a better design. Is it necessary - maybe? Depends on how hard you drive, how unlucky you are, and how thick your wallet is. For a desert prerunner my advice is avoid the custom design until you prove you cannot live with stock parts.
DIY guys are at a disadvantage due developing the geometry. I.E. for a cross over setup.
The story about tie rods:
=======
Heck, why not write a little story. I need the practice and it's fun...

So I bent a stock tie rod in the bronco. First one I've bent since I stuffed
the bronco into a 6 ft deep hole while prerunning the 1998 Baja 1000.
As a side note I was amused when, during the 1998 Baja 1000 while
racing my class 8 truck, I came upon one of the Baldwin Trophy Trucks
sitting on the other side of this very same hole - with a missing A-arm.
Not to be too harsh, it was a sneaky devil of a hole. But I've already digressed.

This time, I did not think the tie rod should have bent. I was driving along a narrow rocky trail that had all others in 4wd low range. The rocks were big. But being the stubborn sort, I remained in 2wd high range and picked my way though until BAM I hit a big boulder with the left front tire. I was going maybe 10 mph, but should have been going 3mph in 4-low.

I stopped a short while later when the gorge opened into a big, fast and long sand wash. Upon inspection, I saw no evidence of any contact between rock and metal. Likewise the sidewalls of the tires were unmolested. I must have just center punched a boulder with the tire. The steering wheel was cocked 45 degrees off to the side and later, on the pavement, the bronco was toed out badly. The toe out was bad enough that it would compress my soft suspension a few inches making the camber also exaggerated. A tie rod was bent.

Back in the shop I removed the tie rod and laid it out on the floor. Now in addition to the class 8 modified race truck (which does not have any stock steering parts on it), we also race a Ford F150 in the Stock Full class. We are supposed to keep everything stock but we have found that the tie rods are a weak link. They tend to bend the long link that runs from the steering box pitman arm to the passenger wheel. This link bends right near the point where the short link to the drivers wheel ties into the longer link. This is exactly where my stock bronco tie rod gave way when the tire encountered the boulder. It turns out that Ford had already discovered this. Starting in 1985, though 1988, Ford sold a 2wd crew cab F350 that had the long tie rod (that we bend) made about 50% thicker. Then in 1989-1992 this oversized tie rod was offered in the F350 crew cab and the F350 with the ambulance package.
In 1993-1997, the beefy tie rod came in both F250 and F350 but only with either a crew cab or ambulance prep. Now all of this is for 2wd trucks. But these big tie rods will fit an F150 4x4 or Bronco as well as an F150 2wd.

Once installed on the truck, you don't really notice that the longer tie rod is 50% larger than it ought to be. So we started using these on the race truck. And sure enough it chased the weak link right out of the long tie rod. And into the short tie rod. Now the short tie rod will be the first to bend. We have many races to prove this.
But the whole package is still stronger than the stock setup.

This did lead to a quest to find out if there was also an oversized Ford tie rod for the short drivers side link. There is not. But it did lead me down a path of some part numbers that where unique to the 4x4 F250 with TTB. I peeked into a box and found what appeared to be an even beefier tie rod. So now I had a plan. I bought three sets of tie rod parts. Stock Bronco, F350 2wd Ambulance, and F250 4x4 TTB. Now back in the shop, I compared and measured all of these. The F250 4x4 TTB is shaped significantly different than the other two setups. I decided that was a dead end. I'll use the glue gun to seal that box back up and return it.

Both the stock Bronco and the F350 2wd ambulance tie rods are close enough that I believe I can swap one for the other. So I will install the oversized tie rod and return the stock setup.


In conclusion, I've decided the tie rod upgrade we run on the Stock Full race truck will also work on a stock bronco. We only run this upsized tie rod on the race truck when we are racing in an event where they do not care. In the BITD race series, they care and we must run the stock little tie rods. That race series is now dominated in the stock class by Hummer H1's and Ford F350's (with ambulance prep!). But in the SCORE and CODE series, they do not care which stock tie rod we run as long as it's a stock Ford tie rod.

F350 2wd Ambulance is what we use.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by PaulW »

The story is written by Baja-Chris in an email to myself and Toddz.Some time ago. I use the fat tie rod and Chris has gone to a super crossover setup built by Glen.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by BajaBronco13 »

Thanks for the info Nick.

Paul, do you have any pics of Chris' steering set up?

Chris
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by SteveG »

It took me way too long to find all this and then verify that it fit (Kris did the actual fitment checking), so I thought I'd post the info to keep you you guys from having to do the legwork again.

The following image gives you Raybestos (used to be Spicer) part numbers for upgrading (larger diameter) the tie rod ends for the right wheel. I looked and looked for replacements for the short side but just couldn't find anything... close, but not close enough.

You can buy these replacements at NAPA stores or anywhere that sells Raybestos chassis parts. These are the blue-booted high-quality stuff that stock-class racers use.

Also noteworthy, even on the heavier trucks that used the following heavy duty long tie rod, Ford stuck with the smaller diameter stuff on the short side.

Maybe the short side is not really a problem? Can some of the stock class racers verify this?
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by flyinbronco »

I bit the bullet and went with Autofab's equal length set up. In fact that's my Bronco in the link. You all can thank me for paying the R&D costs on this set up because I paid a bit more than $2500 being the first set built by John. I can tell you it was worth it. Zero bump steer and its held up well over the years of bashing on the truck. The heims are still tight and steers good on and off road.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by shockseals.com »

flyinbronco wrote:I bit the bullet and went with Autofab's equal length set up. In fact that's my Bronco in the link. You all can thank me for paying the R&D costs on this set up because I paid a bit more than $2500 being the first set built by John. I can tell you it was worth it. Zero bump steer and its held up well over the years of bashing on the truck. The heims are still tight and steers good on and off road.
You should have been discounted being the first...if you paid the R&D, expect royalties!
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by shockseals.com »

SteveG wrote:It took me way too long to find all this and then verify that it fit (Kris did the actual fitment checking), so I thought I'd post the info to keep you you guys from having to do the legwork again.

The following image gives you Raybestos (used to be Spicer) part numbers for upgrading (larger diameter) the tie rod ends for the right wheel. I looked and looked for replacements for the short side but just couldn't find anything... close, but not close enough.

You can buy these replacements at NAPA stores or anywhere that sells Raybestos chassis parts. These are the blue-booted high-quality stuff that stock-class racers use.

Also noteworthy, even on the heavier trucks that used the following heavy duty long tie rod, Ford stuck with the smaller diameter stuff on the short side.

Maybe the short side is not really a problem? Can some of the stock class racers verify this?

The short side that we tried to use had a kick in it that bound up the ball joints to where it wasnt installable...close but no cigar. The beefy draglink, sleeve, TRE fit like a glove though.

Post up the alternate TRE with a kick in it as well...

Thanks for the research Steve.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Dust »

Dumb questions. I haven't picked up my Bronco yet so I can't just go look.
Why are the steering links most often bent (though not always)? Is it a clearance issue?
What material is being used for the pivot bearing in the swing arm?
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by philofab »

Dust wrote:Dumb questions. I haven't picked up my Bronco yet so I can't just go look.
Why are the steering links most often bent (though not always)? Is it a clearance issue?
What material is being used for the pivot bearing in the swing arm?
The bend is for clearance at full bump to the frame. I have seen Derlin, Poly, and com balls used for the swinger pivots.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Dust »

philofab wrote:
Dust wrote:Dumb questions. I haven't picked up my Bronco yet so I can't just go look.
Why are the steering links most often bent (though not always)? Is it a clearance issue?
What material is being used for the pivot bearing in the swing arm?
The bend is for clearance at full bump to the frame. I have seen Derlin, Poly, and com balls used for the swinger pivots.

Thank you!
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by SteveG »

shockseals.com wrote:Post up the alternate TRE with a kick in it as well...
I forgot about that...

In all the sifting through tie rod ends I figured out that there is an alternative to the straight outer tie rod end listed above.

Instead of the straight 401-1418 right outer tie rod end you can use a 401-1522 which steps up after the joint and raises the steering a bit and possibly out of harms way. All other dimensions are the same.

Keep in mind that I have not cycled a front end with the stepped tie rod end installed, so I can't tell you for sure that it won't run into the frame. I'm pretty sure it won't, but you should check for yourself since caster and bump stop locations can vary thus changing steering location at full bump.

The first picture is the straight 401-1418.

The second is the stepped 401-1522.
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401-1522.jpg
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Dust »

Not being a racer and so not having to abide by rules.
Why not basically duplicate the OE linkage switch to SRE's and locate on the top of the steering arm?
Again I do not have my B yet so this may be another dumb question...
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by philofab »

Dust wrote:Not being a racer and so not having to abide by rules.
Why not basically duplicate the OE linkage switch to SRE's and locate on the top of the steering arm?
Again I do not have my B yet so this may be another dumb question...
Flipping to the top of the knuckle for steering induces bump steer unless you move the pitman pivot up also, which in turn created clearance issues with the frame.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Dust »

philofab wrote:
Dust wrote:Not being a racer and so not having to abide by rules.
Why not basically duplicate the OE linkage switch to SRE's and locate on the top of the steering arm?
Again I do not have my B yet so this may be another dumb question...
Flipping to the top of the knuckle for steering induces bump steer unless you move the pitman pivot up also, which in turn created clearance issues with the frame.
Thanks again I'm learning.
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Re: Steering Systems - Stock, Superunner & Equal Len. Crossover

Post by Dust »

SteveG wrote:
Instead of the straight 401-1418 right outer tie rod end you can use a 401-1522 which steps up after the joint and raises the steering a bit and possibly out of harms way. All other dimensions are the same.
If flipping the TRE to the top will induce BumpStr.
Would this offset TRE do basically the same thing?

Oh, and thanks for tolerating my dumb questions.
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