Transmission coolers

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PaulW
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by PaulW »

cs_drums wrote:I was under the impression that pullers were more effecient. I have a puller on my cbr and its in front of my radiator. I know that the engine fan is pulling as well but air follows the past of least resistance, right? So to have a fan that is shrouded directly for your cooler seems like it would be more effecient. Just my thouhgts.
========
I know a thing or 2 from my previous life and here are my comments.
Pushers or pullers? Technically the answer is not real clear. From an engineering perspective pushing front to rear results in an more efficient fan because it sees cooler air than it would if is sucked thru the cooler. BUT, Does the setup include a tight shroud? Pushers need a shroud to make sure all the fan air actually gets to the cooler. Cool air is more dense and fans like that.
So a sucker is moving hot air with less efficiency. No big deal because all you need is a bigger unit. Besides all that hot air is is being pushed to the radiator helping that air flow. So does you sucker fan have a tight shroud? The sucker shroud is not as important as the pusher version due to the cooler seeing the cool air over its whole area. A tight shroud would be good. BUT, bigger compensates. Anyway unless you have a race truck shroud should not enter the discussion. Because bigger is better anyway. Did I say that more than once?
So Baja Chris and I both have no shroud suckers. Mine because it was to hard to do a pusher. Same story for my Jeep. Not enough room for a pusher. My Bronco temps are normal In 4HIGH in the deep sand I see around 200F in 2nd gear. In 4 low I see 180F because I am in 3rd or 4th and the TC is locked. Kills the fuel economy and keeps everything cool with lower throttle settings. I have seen slightly above 200F in a situation where I was afraid to stop to get into 4LOW and I just kept the throttle down. C4/6 trannys do not have lockup TC so the best thing to is get into 4LOW and keep the revs up for more tranny fluid flowing thru the coolers. In any event pan temp of 250F is redline when using Amsoil ATF. Less with lesser fluids. Never seen that number in the last 9 years.

So where to get a blower cooler? For trannys select $B&M$. The one that fits my Bronco is also used on monster trucks with way bigger heat loads. Never use a serp tube cooler for trannys. Just flat plate. Search to read about that subject.

So- what to do? Instalation is the key. What fits works in most cases. In the case of race trucks sucker fans are exclusivly used and they all have very tight shrouds. They like them because the wiring and motor are visible and have easy access. and size is not an issue. Really big.
Tip: when running two coolers in series consult with the tech page at B&M to see how to plumb them. And find out about running them in paralel?

Where to mount the coolers?
Answer is where they get the coolest air. Which in all cases except for rear mounted racers is in front of the rad. And in the case of a race truck notice the coolers see cool air that comes thru the cab. A good design feature.
So what to do if the engine overheats due to those huge tranny coolers in front of the rad? Answer is to work on the cooling system and get it back to stock. Correct oem fan, stat, and the stock AC & tow package rad. That rad has a 2"+ core and has the necessary fins per inch that was researched by engineers at Ford. Do that and your 500 Hp motor will not over heat even with the two B&M blower coolers us guys are using.

So read and make your choice.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by shockseals.com »

PaulW wrote:So Baja Chris and I both have no shroud suckers. PW

Chris told me this morning he has two low buck blowers and low buck coolers with the fans "blowing" on the front of yeller.

Looks like I need to flip the orientation of my setup and use the fan as a sucker as it was designed if packaging is available or get the proper blowing fan mounted where the current reverse polarity sucker is located. Spal said reversing polarity reduces CFM 50%
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by baja-chris »

shockseals.com wrote:
PaulW wrote:So Baja Chris and I both have no shroud suckers. PW

Chris told me this morning he has two low buck blowers and low buck coolers with the fans "blowing" on the front of yeller.

Looks like I need to flip the orientation of my setup and use the fan as a sucker as it was designed if packaging is available or get the proper blowing fan mounted where the current reverse polarity sucker is located. Spal said reversing polarity reduces CFM 50%
I think you are both right. I bought cooler/fan setups that came as suckers but the fan is reversible (take fan off spindle and flip it over) so I converted them to blowers because I could not make them fit between the grill and the A/C condensor unless the fan was on the grill side (due to the shape of the grill). Even then, I had to cut away some plastic from the back side of the grill to clear the fan motors. Of course however you mount them you need the fans to flow air from front to back so they are not fighting the wind on the highway. BTW, reversing the wire polarity is not a good idea on most fans because the shape of the fan blades are much less effecient when run backwards. Thats why many fans are designed so you can flip the fan.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by shockseals.com »

baja-chris wrote:
shockseals.com wrote:
PaulW wrote:So Baja Chris and I both have no shroud suckers. PW

Chris told me this morning he has two low buck blowers and low buck coolers with the fans "blowing" on the front of yeller.

Looks like I need to flip the orientation of my setup and use the fan as a sucker as it was designed if packaging is available or get the proper blowing fan mounted where the current reverse polarity sucker is located. Spal said reversing polarity reduces CFM 50%
I think you are both right. I bought cooler/fan setups that came as suckers but the fan is reversible (take fan off spindle and flip it over) so I converted them to blowers because I could not make them fit between the grill and the A/C condensor unless the fan was on the grill side (due to the shape of the grill). Even then, I had to cut away some plastic from the back side of the grill to clear the fan motors. Of course however you mount them you need the fans to flow air from front to back so they are not fighting the wind on the highway. BTW, reversing the wire polarity is not a good idea on most fans because the shape of the fan blades are much less effecient when run backwards. Thats why many fans are designed so you can flip the fan.
You are correct. I called Spal and they said 50% reduction in flow by reversing polarity. I am looking into it today hopefully but I think I had to trim the same shit to make it fit the way it fits now that you refer too due to packaging.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by PaulW »

For the 96 Bronco the B&M I chose fits fine fan/motor aft of the cooler. Sucker mode. No trim of the grill and easy mount with VW rubber isolators and some metal brackets. I dithered between several manufacturers before I got the B&M. measure measure. The Jeep was even worse. Bought the one with the least depth and still had to trim the metal grill.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by hobbyturnedobsession »

I have a big derale cooler with fan and i had to trim the grille a bit with a dremmel but i can run hard and with the fan on in the time it takes me to get out of the truck i can grab the inlet side and hold it without any issues.
I'm just here for the views. It helps me feel wanted.
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What are ya'll running for trans coolers?

Post by Joxracing »

Just like the title says... Looking to get an idea of what trans cooler to run for the #505 F150 Stock Truck of ours. It'll be mounted in the "bed" (just bedsides) along with an electric fan.

Size, would like to have as big as possible. Is there an extremely large OEM one out there thats a pretty go-to cooler? Or any suggested after market ones? Again, price is "low budget"

Thanks!
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Re: What are ya'll running for trans coolers?

Post by ESHALLBETTER »

Keep an eye on e-bay. I've got a large aluminum cooler, don't remember the brand, I bought it a while ago. I got it from a road race guy for like 100 bucks. I believe he was running it as an oil cooler (it has AN12's on it), I changed the fittings on it and plumbed it for trans.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

found this reference and figured it might be relevant ...

http://www.digi-panel.com/trannyoil.htm
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

I tried searching but couldn't find anything.... has anyone used the Auto Meter 15010 steering column gauge mount? application is 99-04 Super Duty...but seems to work according to a guy on another board...I put it in this thread because I want to add a trans temp gauge

Image
Image

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10482 ... e-pod.html
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by Rmc »

Speaking of which: what's the max temp a trans should see for effective cooling and long life?
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

this is from the link above I posted...

Automatic Transmissions

OIL TEMPERATURE MEASURED AT CONVERTER OUTLET TO COOLER:

300° F=

The maximum allowable temperature. This is the recommended place to install a temperature gauge or sensor. Do not allow the converter outlet temperature to exceed 300° F. The temperature at this location will vary significantly because of load, hill climbing, etceteras. If the temperature reaches 300° F, reduce throttle. To lower transmission temperature with transmission in neutral, run the engine at 1,200 RPM for at least 2 - 3 minutes while keeping a close check for signs of engine overheating. A transmission in a heavy throttle, stall condition (a typical situation is rocking a vehicle stuck in mud, sand, or snow), may increase temperature at a rate of 1° degree per second of stall.

OIL TEMPERATURE MEASURED AT OIL PAN OR SUMP:

150° F=

The minimum operating temperature. Note: It is possible in low ambient temperatures to overcool the transmission with auxiliary oil to air coolers. Oil to water coolers in standard factory radiators will normally not overcool a transmission.

175-200° F=

Normal pan oil temperature operating range.

275° F=

Maximum allowable oil pan temperature for short durations during long hill climbs.

300° F=

Damage occurs to internal transmission parts, including warpage of metal parts, degradation of clutches, and melting of seals. Transmission oil oxidizes, (forming varnish-like substances causing further clutch slippage and compounding heat build up) and transmission oil life is extremely short.

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID LIFE / TEMPERATURE RELATIONSHIP:

Automatic transmission oil can provide up to 100,000 miles of service before oxidation requires replacement, at an operating temperature of 175° F. Above this temperature, the oil oxidation rate doubles with each 20° degrees F increase in oil temperature. See chart.

DEGREES F MILES DEGREES F MILES

175 100,000 295 1,500
195 50,000 315 750
215 25,000 335 325
235 12,500 355 160
255 6,250 375 80
275 3,125 395 40

Note: Transmission oil and filter should always be changed more frequently when driving with heavy loads (RVs), typically at least every 25,000 mile intervals, since converter outlet temperatures then normally far exceed the ideal 175° F.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by Rmc »

Good to know thx Robert
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by PaulW »

I am not sure the data in Roberts post means much. Modern synthetic tranny oils have much longer life vs temp
than the numbers that have been on the Internet for years and years. I still have not found reputable data for
the newer oils. For sure Full syn Atf is good for 350F
All synthetic oils are good for much higher temps than the internals of the tranny can live with. So what to do?
I believe in using the tranny oil temp measure is the answer. Tranny temps are measured by the oil in the pan
reflect what the tranny sees. If you discuss this subject with any tranny builder they will say the same thing,
which is keep the pan temp low. I use a temp redline of 250F & a blower on at 180F with my Amsoil ATF.
Low temp has a similar story. Syn ATF is pretty good stuff at temps down to 100F. My gauge starts at 140 and
gets there pretty fast.
Gauges. Boy what a revolution in the quality of gauges. I am upgrading all my rigs. I like the smart gauges from
Autometer. They contain damped gear drive so are cheaper than the liquid filled ones . They contain a
micro processor that allows the gauge to drive external circuits like warning lights or blowers (via a relay). All
controlled by programmable set points built into the gauge.
And they are full sweep electric for easy reading. Now that Autometer has bought out the NASCAR suppliers
even more features will flow down to consumer gauges. A good thing due to volume production.
My choice is the Comp II series.
PW
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

I'd agree those temps probably don't apply to the newer synthetics, but as a rule I don't think they are that far off on recommendations, as you mentioned, just because a fluid will last running at 350' doesn't mean the rest of the trans will and it's probably not a bad idea to service the trans shortly thereafter.

I'll have to take a look at those gauges, I was going to start looking into how to wire a warning light, knowing they are programmable sounds like that will be easy.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

Programmable Autometer Sport Comp II

http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetai ... 871&sid=60

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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by Rmc »

I was always under the impression of 200 to 250 as to not burn the oil, but figured I'd ask u guys. I do know a higher stall speed adds temperature and is to be avoided due to decreased reliability.
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by PaulW »

Rmc wrote:I was always under the impression of 200 to 250 as to not burn the oil,
but figured I'd ask u guys. I do know a higher stall speed adds temperature and is to be
avoided due to decreased reliability.
=======
Syn ATF does not burn until the temps are in the +400F region per the above links. Way above our experience.
The Amsoil graph show margin after 100k miles because Syn ATF is superior to plain old ATF sold in the
old days as well and syn brands like Mopar sells.
Just remember that temps that do not harm the fluid can still harm the tranny.

Thus the temps at TC out that tell you how hot the ATF got is not meaningful data.
The Pan ATF temp is what one needs to worry about.
It is true that temps above 200 in the pan are worrisome and require active actions to keep it lower.
PW
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Re: Transmission coolers

Post by robertcrav »

philofab wrote:The biggest single upgrade for an E4OD is larger cooling lines to increase flow. I added a external Wix fluid power filter on mine which increases capacity buy 1-2 quarts.
bump for an old thread and for a post that I don't think got a lot of attention....

Philo, are you talking larger bent hard lines, or running flexible lines up to the front from the trans?
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