Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by Wrightracing.net »

Has anyone done the Turbo 400 and converted it to a 4 speed?
I saw a Extreme 4x4 epasode that they did the conversion of the Turbo 400
3 speed to a 4 speed, using some internals from a 4L80 (I think) to give it another
Gear and not have to run an electronically controlled trans. I wonder how strong they
are and do they run hot compared to a 3 speed or a C6.

I wonder if there is a C6 upgrade to a 4 speed?

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
User avatar
philofab
Basura Blanca
Posts: 5643
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:37 am
Bronco Info: A pile of crap.
Location: Bullhead, AZ
Contact:

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by philofab »

You can convert a 4L80E to manual valve body and a vacuum line pressure controller with transgo parts.

The biggest upgrade is the torque converter lockup... which can be controlled 700R4 style.
Follow me on Instagram. @philofab1 or Youtube https://www.youtube.com/philofab/
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Post by Wrightracing.net »

The idea they put forth was to have a non electronic controlled transmission that would give you
Good highway speeds with lower rpm's and by a strong reliable unit. They used a 4L80, I think it is called the main shaft and a 300m output shaft. The new setup also added a additional oil passage that dumped post oil cooler oil right on the clutch pack.
I seems like a solid setup.

I was wondering if anyone had one?
Also, has anyone seen a C6 converted to a 4 speed?

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
User avatar
AussieRod
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am
Bronco Info: 81 Bronco XLT, 250 alloy head crossflow 6, NP435/NP208, 4:10 gears, 31-10.5R15 M/Ts.
Location: Downunder

Re:

Post by AussieRod »

Wrightracing.net wrote:Also, has anyone seen a C6 converted to a 4 speed?
Yep, it's called a E4OD. ;)
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Post by Wrightracing.net »

Ya Rob, the idea is a non electric controlled transmission 4 speed. Not necessarily a overdrive transmission

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
User avatar
AussieRod
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am
Bronco Info: 81 Bronco XLT, 250 alloy head crossflow 6, NP435/NP208, 4:10 gears, 31-10.5R15 M/Ts.
Location: Downunder

Re:

Post by AussieRod »

Wrightracing.net wrote:Ya Rob, the idea is a non electric controlled transmission 4 speed. Not necessarily a overdrive transmission

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
I was just being a smart arse, sorry :)
If it's for a Ford, just use a PATS AOD, if you want a 4 speed NEOD trans (Non Electronic Over Drive). Unfortunately, Ford didn't give us a lot of choices; C6 (3 speed), AOD ( hydraulic 4 speed OD) or E4OD (servo actuated 4 speed OD). Like many, I don't have the resources to try and adapt a GM trans into my Ford, and I do/did NOT want an electronically controlled trans so I chose the best option for me, a Monster built AOD. In hindsight, I should have gone ZF 5 speed manual. If the AOD turns out to be a mistake, that's the plan.
User avatar
PaulW
Posts: 1589
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:56 am
Bronco Info: Modified and Linked 1972 Bronco

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by PaulW »

GM 700R4 is a common swap to a ford Windsor. 4 speed w OD and all mechanical. capable provision to lock converter. Tons of info on the web for that install in various rigs. It will sit a little higher that an AOD to make it more interesting.
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Post by Wrightracing.net »

Rod, I did a built AOD in my 302 with some upgrades pushing just under 300hp, where the AOD did not last much more then a year. I have the C6 NOW, which I have not run yet. My Bronco is not a daily driver, so it will not see much freeway time, but it would be nice to have another gear on the C6.

I liked the idea of the Turbo 400 4 speed, because it is a proven survivor for what we do off road and with the upgraded that dumps Trans fluid directly from the cooler return to the chutch pack is such a great thing to keep things cooler.

If I stretched the Bronco, I would consider a C6 with a Gear Vendor under/over Drive. The Gear Vendor I have on my 454, Turbo 400 has been great on my Motor home and has never had a cooling issue, even when towing a Trailer with my 8000lbs Diesel crew cab Super Duty truck in 110° weather going up the grade north of vegas, which is a long grade.

It would be a cool upgrade for the C6 with a 4 speed modification. :-)

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
User avatar
AussieRod
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am
Bronco Info: 81 Bronco XLT, 250 alloy head crossflow 6, NP435/NP208, 4:10 gears, 31-10.5R15 M/Ts.
Location: Downunder

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by AussieRod »

AOD's need a fixed pressure valve body. That's an upgrade I'll consider if the TV cable gets too funky. Then the TV cable will only signal kick-down, instead of controlling pressure (the PRIMARY cause of failure in most AODs).
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Post by Wrightracing.net »

Ya, I did that the second time I rebuilt the AOD. It helped a little but still had heating up issue's even with a aftermarket tranny cooler. That over heating issue was in long silt beds and deep sand for prolonged periods of time. In a friend's Bronco we did the C6 and the same tranny cooler and it runs great even in the dunes in the summer. That was my rational for going to the C6 with my 408 in the Bronco.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
User avatar
AussieRod
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am
Bronco Info: 81 Bronco XLT, 250 alloy head crossflow 6, NP435/NP208, 4:10 gears, 31-10.5R15 M/Ts.
Location: Downunder

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by AussieRod »

I hear ya. AOD's are prone to heating up, apparently, due to internal slippage. One cure I have noted was using 1/2" cooler hoses, due to insufficient oil flow to/from the cooler. Gonna try this on my F100 and see if it makes a difference.
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by Wrightracing.net »

I run -10 AN fittings on my AOD which is .658" hose, but it did not work for mine. One thing with mine is Baja and Southern California desert and sand dunes are hard on transmissions. Especially when the Bronco is running 35" tires and the AOD was originally designed for cars and light duty trucks. That is why they never used the AOD on the 351w. Mine worked fine on the street. With the stock 1986 302ci output around 190 HP where my mildly beefed up higher compression 302ci motor is just under 300hp. The more horsepower being put through the AOD, probably does not help with the over heating.

The picture of my Bronco is the seen of the crime, when I brew the Trans pump seals on the 2nd AOD. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]


Good luck on the build, the body work you did looks great, very clean.Image

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
User avatar
AussieRod
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am
Bronco Info: 81 Bronco XLT, 250 alloy head crossflow 6, NP435/NP208, 4:10 gears, 31-10.5R15 M/Ts.
Location: Downunder

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by AussieRod »

Thanks for the paint kudos, but up close it looks like I used a piece of broken concrete to smooth it all down. :oops: :oops:

As for the AOD, you are probably right. If it gives me too much hassle, I'll put a ZF 5 speed in it and call it done.
300
Posts: 647
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:44 pm
Bronco Info: 1979 Class 3 Race Bronco. Built in 2000.

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by 300 »

There is no room in a C6 for another gear. It has to go in front or in back. That is what a E4OD is, a C6 with another planetary tacked on the front, that's why they are so long. The rear 3/4 of the E4OD trans is an electronically controlled C6, they share the same internals. There is no combination of locked clutches or bands that will make the two existing planetaries in a C6 produce an OD output. They can make an E4OD into a six speed using the OD planetary to split the 3 gears in the C6 section.

Chrysler chose to make their OD trans from their old 727 trans and tacked the OD planetary on the back. It uses something like a 10 plate clutch to take all the torque from the gear multiplication in the lower gears, but it fits in what is essentially the transfer case adapter, so the overall trans length isn't so long.

I can't speak for the T400 trans, not sure if or how they can do another gear within the existing gear case.
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by Wrightracing.net »

300 wrote:There is no room in a C6 for another gear. It has to go in front or in back. That is what a E4OD is, a C6 with another planetary tacked on the front, that's why they are so long. The rear 3/4 of the E4OD trans is an electronically controlled C6, they share the same internals. There is no combination of locked clutches or bands that will make the two existing planetaries in a C6 produce an OD output. They can make an E4OD into a six speed using the OD planetary to split the 3 gears in the C6 section.

Chrysler chose to make their OD trans from their old 727 trans and tacked the OD planetary on the back. It uses something like a 10 plate clutch to take all the torque from the gear multiplication in the lower gears, but it fits in what is essentially the transfer case adapter, so the overall trans length isn't so long.

I can't speak for the T400 trans, not sure if or how they can do another gear within the existing gear case.
Hey Moss, in the T400, they take the planetary's and center shaft out of a 4L80, it goes right into the T400. The two cases are similar inside enough so they work.

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
300
Posts: 647
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:44 pm
Bronco Info: 1979 Class 3 Race Bronco. Built in 2000.

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by 300 »

Hey Moss, in the T400, they take the planetary's and center shaft out of a 4L80, it goes right into the T400. The two cases are similar inside enough so they work.

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk[/quote]

That is interesting, I did not know that. I think the only GM trans I have rebuilt is a Powerglide.
User avatar
philofab
Basura Blanca
Posts: 5643
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:37 am
Bronco Info: A pile of crap.
Location: Bullhead, AZ
Contact:

Re: Turbo 400 3 to 4 speed upgrade

Post by philofab »

Wrightracing.net wrote:Hey Moss, in the T400, they take the planetary's and center shaft out of a 4L80, it goes right into the T400. The two cases are similar inside enough so they work.
The 4L80E has the SAME components in the geartrain with a overrun and OD unit added to the front with a new case. There is no room in a Turbo 400 to add these, however you can swap a stonger 4L80E planetary into a Turbo 400 to make it tougher. Many of the 4L80E components are commonly used to upgrade Turbo 400s.

If you need a 4 speed, converting a 4L80E to a manual valve body and adding the Transgo vaccuum modulator kit to control line pressure will achieve what you are asking. A non electrically controlled overdrive transmission. You could eliminate the lockup solenoid too, but there is no benefit in doing so.

No way to add another gear to a C6 without a tailshaft OD like the Volvo unit that GV sells. Also, I am not aware of any vacuum modulator kits for the E4OD, however you can make a manual valve body for one and just set the line pressure to 100% all the time (shifts will feel like you were just rear ended).
Follow me on Instagram. @philofab1 or Youtube https://www.youtube.com/philofab/
User avatar
Wrightracing.net
Posts: 2199
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm
Bronco Info: 1972 Bronco with an 86 chassis, full cage and Long travel coil-over suspension.
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Post by Wrightracing.net »

I went back and watched the Extreme 4x4 episode on spike and the 4L80E components into the Turbo 400. It does not use the overdrive.
They made it sound that it was a 4 speed, but I think they just mentioned the components for a 4 speed in the turbo 400 and not making it a 4 speed.

Here is the episode on the spike tv website.

https://www.powernationtv.com/episode/X ... ansmission

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
Post Reply