Pure gasoline vs E10

[Kel Fab Creations]

I somehow stumbled across discussions of ethanol mixed gas last night and it perked my curiosity. So after a few hours of reserching it I come to find out that for years now it has been common (especially in CA) for all gas stations to only sell gas that has been mixed with 10% ethanol (E10). On top of that, CA is one of the states that isn't required to label the pumps as containing ethanol. I don't know the exact years but most newer cars are made to run on the ethanol mix. Older cars are not and it messes up engines and components apparently. Plus it's said that if you can find pure gasoline that you'll get 2-3 more mpg. Ethanol has been pushed by the government to "lessen our dependence on foreign oil" but the fact is that we're using more oil because we're getting worse mpg. Gas stations want to sell the E10 because they make more money off the stuff. Apparently there will be even more ethanol in our gas in the future... E15 and E20 are said to be in the works. I called like 30 local gas stations this morning and only one said their gas doesn't contain ethanol.

Knc Gas Station
703 S Euclid Ave, Ontario, CA 91762
(909) 983-5556

Ontario is too far for me to go get gas but if any of you guys live or work near this station I'd encourage you to verify if it actually is pure gas and after a few tanks if it does boost mpg.

I only ran across this stuff last night so if any of you know more about it please enlighten me. I wish I could find a station closer to me so I can see the difference for myself.

[300]

Drivers going cross-country I have heard report that they get better mileage with fuel from other states where fuel is not mixed with ethanol. You are correct that CA stations have been forced to sell mixed fuel for a long time now. I am not aware of any stations around Sacramento that don't sell it that way. It is extremely tough on rubber components in fuel systems and I have constant problems with carb squirter diaphragms and mechanical fuel pumps for all my old vehicles and equipment. The newer fuel systems use hoses and parts that don't get eaten by it. Technically you aren't using more oil with lower fuel mileage, you are using more ethanol. In the midwest they are tearing down old buildings and buying up golf courses so they can grow more corn, it has sent grain prices out of sight!

[Kel Fab Creations]

You're correct, I miss worded that. Technically not using more oil in our cars but just shifting the oil consumption to somewhere else as in growing, shipping, producing ethanol out of corn. With the added bonus of us getting less for our money.

[Rmc]

It's kind of an interesting discussion, to my knowledge here's a little tidbit. Basically a number of years back the Brazilian economy collapsed. To some how bail them selves out of the giant hole of debt they found themselves in they sold the majority of the amazon rain forest to foreign investors aka the Chinese and the eurozone. The government was unable to get their oil refined and took steps to become the worlds number one producer of ethanol. The entire economy of brazil runs off ethanol as a primary fuel source, they make ethanol from corn, cane( which is by far easier to grow and dosent strip the soil of needed nutrients the way corn does) and soy beans. They are also the worlds number 1 or 2 exporters of ethanol. Their oil reserves were sold to global giants like bp. The way I understand it is there is taxes and restrictions in place against foreign ethanol imports to the us for a number of reasons. 1st it undermines the us governments roll in the farm subsidies scam( translation the government trades new equipment rebates, tax shelters ect for a slice of the ethanol product when it reaches the market) so the farmers get a brake, Uncle Sam gets a slice, and it protects it investment via trade and import restrictions. Implementation of mandatory ethanol adding to fuel gets the government a garanteed return. The government also gets a very large kickback from oil giants in both campaign contributions, distribution and refining costs and agian to the end receiver in the form of federal sales tax. I'm actually very surprised that someone is selling pure gasoline. We in California have all heard " summer blend& winter blend" these terms are agian referring to the mtbe and gasoline mixtures available at the pump. The long and short of it is, if we imported ethanol the government would lose money even though the amazon is being leveled as we speak to make available more farmland to grow more cane crops for ethanol production. Big oil has such a strong hand in the global market due to the worlds dependency and OPAC. Ah yes good old OPAC. These assholes set the supply levels world wide with a few acceptions, basically when you see the price of crude rise its OPAC forcing the released production levels to slow due to someplace globally that consumption has slowed. It manipulates the cost of crude to maintain certain profit levels for its shareholders. There's no such thing as an oil shortage btw there's enought oil in the domestic us to power the entire world for 1 million years. It's all a large scale market manipulation to boost the wealth of some and hold others down to make sure the right players maintain a seat at the global table of power. As time goes on the clarity of foreign interests on a global scale become more and more apparent. Bio desiel is another one that is heavily taxed and distribution restrictions are put in place to not upset the balance of all interests involved. The biggest question one should ask is why? Why would the us get involved in a global ponzie scheme the answer is the same as its been since the beginning of time... Greed.

[Rmc]

In the end the California legislature is always first in line to jump on board with any and all new streams of income under the guise of environmental protection due to many unfunded obligations, 1st is the unfunded pension obligations which causes the largest by far deficits in the California economy. The current bonds for the public schools and prison systems are shortly right behind it in underfunding. I'm really sorry you guys to turn this conversation into politics and many of you have a preconceived notion of what's really going on. I challenge you to do your homework and if you want the truth in any matter follow the money trail. Politicians as a whole get corrupted when the money is presented to them. I for the life of me can't understand why everyone buys into the ideas hook line and sinker when a politician presents them. There is no doubt in my mind that any legislator cares in anyway about the long term dammage, premature wear or failure of your cars components. Instead he or she looks foreward to the new stream of sales tax on the purchase of a new car. It kind of makes you wonder actually about the urban legend of an American car being spent at 100000 miles and its source of origin. I personally have experienced well over the 200k mark in many vehicles, but efficiency is not and has never been the name of the game in cars but rather a suppression of innovation and true efficiency. I wish one of you guys would invent an alternative fuel with a lesser corrupt chain of command but I don't see that in the near future. Remember the pain at the pump is planned, and the use of ethanol is also planned. For what it's worth.

[Rmc]

Again guys sorry to get all political on you but their are very few topics less politically fueled than energy sources. I just shake my head and say ill be over here doing my own thing trying to ignore it all. At the end of the day I as an individual have no control over fuel blends, availability, or fuel types so I just have to try to live within the confines set before me the best I can.

[Dust]

E10 will in time rot any/all rubber part in the fuel system IF the rubber is not formulated/rated for 100% Alcohol compatibility.
Even that fancy Aeroquipt/braided lines if not rated for booze.
I've been seeing it a bunch in the past few years but you know it cant happen to you! So, I knew about it, I didn't check my parts close enough (the only way is to replace) and we were lucky that when the fuel started hitting the ground we were able to get replacement parts overnighted in to where we were. Still not fun to replace where we were 2500 miles from the shop.

[Kel Fab Creations]

I agree with you Robert. Government greed is at the root of all things that are screwed up in this country (and the world for that matter).

Anyone know what year they started to set up cars to be used with ethanol?

[Silverslk]

Aprilia motorcycles with plastic gas tanks are seeing swelling of more than 1/4". My buddy works on race bikes and once they pull a tank, its a pain to ever get back on without damaging the plastic tank. Cost to user increases multiple ways but government doesn't care about that impact either.

[Dust]

Anyone know what year they started to set up cars to be used with ethanol?

Somewhere around 2010.

[blueoval8493]

We have that same e10 here in ny. But soon after it came out the station's labeled the pumps. I had a 2007 mustang GT at the time and lost almost exactly 3 mpg. The bigger problem you guys probably don't see as much with the nicer climate is that the ethanol absorbs water like a sponge. I've seen many holes in 2 stoke pistons both in snowmobiles and chainsaws since this garbage has come out. I run non ethanol in everything I own. Sure it cost $1 more a gallon but it's worth it to me.

[Rmc]

I agree with you Robert. Government greed is at the root of all things that are screwed up in this country (and the world for that matter).

Anyone know what year they started to set up cars to be used with ethanol?

I personally don't believe government greed is the issue but rather sell out politicians willing to waiver supposed core values dependent on campaign contributions. Let me put it this way, you won't last long in office if you aren't willing to cater your "beliefs" to the ones who are paying the bills. No it's not the taxpayers as you may think. It's private interest groups, unions, ect. 99% of politicians are willing to bend a little here or there to get some kind of initiative passed. Basically: "ill let you have this if I can have that".Well the "that" that is so important to an elected official is the stuff you don't see or hear about,the "that" is standing for a private interest groups initiative, the "if you stand for this topic I can get you in a higher branch of government or a cushie board job like c.a.r.b. or college professor", or the multitude of unelected officials that set policy behind the scenes that the sellout electees say is the new big thing that's important. I believe it's not greed on a government level but the individual level, the exact people who get elected as individuals to serve the people's best interest. These individuals are in fact are serving there own interests in the short term and the long term, but I assure you they are serving themselves first. The few that break this sickening cycle are the ones the media blows some insignificant detail of there life way out of proportion. The smear campaigns, the charecter assassination attempts, and the bs that we get bombarded by daily by mainstream media sources. The fuel thing, the oil thing, the world police thing, nothing surprises me anymore. But at its core is individual greed and self serving narcisim of individuals resulting in a sour taste as a whole. The government is only an enforcer and a mechanizum, the real issue is people's stupidity,blindness,and lacidazical nature of contentment. People allowing dumb ass topics to devide them like wage,race, color, and creed rather than standing up for what is RIGHT and serving the best interest of a stranger as if was your own. Keep in mind most of what I'm saying are generalities but the point has been made. Sry to get up on the soap box but you made me think about your interpretation of my underlying point.

[Rmc]

Nuff said.

[Kel Fab Creations]

I agree with what you're saying about individuals but when these greedy individuals make up the government leader population it's not just an individual thing anymore. It's government culture.

Let me also add mainstream media to the greedy list. Manipulating stories to get ratings is just as bad in my mind as politicians selling out. We all heard about the greedy lady that sued McDonald's because she spilled her coffee on herself right? Well what you didn't hear was that her coffee was hotter than than the coolant in your radiator and that this store had multiple complaints about the coffee being too hot. Not to mention she didn't walk away with nearly the money the media said she did. But we as a nation except everything we hear in the papers, TV or Internet as fact.

Back to the gas mixing thing. The government has snuck it in there and claimed it is better for everyone and society as a group just allows it.

[Rmc]

Exactly.

[PaulW]

What I know
No Bronco is compatible with alcohol in any percentage. The saving grace is the station where you get your gas probably does not have much of the contaminant. Maybe in CA the enforcement is stronger and you actually could get E10??

Read your owners manual for your fuel requirements. Lots of vehicles say up to E10 is OK, however that owners manual only gives the info to get the manufacturer thru the warrantee period.

Results when using E10 based on the science:
Your fuel economy will be 3-5% less compared to E0
If you have a newer car then your power will be slightly higher due to the way the ECU looks at the A/F readings.
If you have an older car with a carburetor your power will be less with E10 due to the lower density and lower energy level for the E10.

Otherwise using a food source to power vehicles seems to be bad policy. Burning of diesel fuel to cook the corn to make the stuff requires an EPA waiver. So what is the benefit? The answer is the whole thing is a large corporate farm subsidy and we all pay for the alcohol fuel policy.

What to do to your older vehicle if you have to use E10:
Convert to modern off the shelf fuel lines. BTW my Bronco has nylon lined fuel lines that are compatible. Look for a carb kit the has alcohol compatible stuff.
If you have efi replace the injectors seals with compatible O-rings.
If you vintage rig has plastic tank replace it with metal.
What I do for my 96 is nothing. I will just wait for the thing to crap out.
For my 72 with a 92 efi motor, I now have compatible fuel lines and metal tank. Same stock Mustang pump and injectors.
BTW in Mexico and in Colorado (locally) the fuel is E0
PW

[Rmc]

Here's more proof on subsidy return on investment and a new blend that will mess up your car even faster.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceW9Nc1h ... ata_player